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D&D (2024) Survey Launch | Player's Handbook Playtest 5 | Unearthed Arcana | D&D

Yeah, I hadn't made notes in advance and had been putting off doing the survey because I knew it was going to be such a pain.

It ended up taking me three hours. And I didn't get around to saying much of what I wanted to because of the 200 word limit on a lot of the answers. I tried to stick comments where they might seem somewhat appropriate, but three hours for something that an intern might look at for two minutes is a crazy amount of work, even if I were getting paid for it.

The quality of my feedback started off pretty well with the Barbarian where I just tried to highlight which features were working for us or not and where there were wording issues and mechanical conflicts. Three hours later, by the time I got to the Wizard's "Modify Spell" spell I was pretty much just... "No way. This is BROKEN. Change it."

I did use the final "any other thoughts" filed to just tell them how I think they blew their chance to get good feedback from me, by this whole process. If they started this all six months earlier and did one new class a month with one revision on later classes we would be about in the same place and I might have my sanity tonight.
 

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James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
(Until we get a flying thread, I guess I'll keep posting here). I'm reminded of how Pathfinder decided to implement the Flying skill as a way to keep players from doing whatever they wanted to in the air. Unfortunately, a lot of actual flying animals can't invest skill points in the skill, and since most realistic fliers don't have super amazing mobility in the air, a lot of things that are great fliers in the real world turned out to be pretty bad at it in Pathfinder, lol.

Then they muddled the mixture further by not letting players invest in Fly until they could actually fly, at which point your 5th level Wizard would also be bad, but hey, no problem, we'll have the spell give a bonus to your Fly check, forgetting that it also grants a bonus for being B class and...why is this a skill again? LOL.

Anyways, sure, you could redesign flying monsters so that all the hassles of flying don't exist for them, just for players, but I think there's already enough of that nonsense in the game already, where players have to obey all the rules, but monsters get free passes because monsters.

Between oddball choices in monster design and DM's perfectly willing to ignore rules when they get in their way, it seems odd to hear someone complain about the rules being used as a shield against the DM.

I mean, as a community, how often have you seen:

Monsters armed with shields and melee weapons (like say, Goblins) instantly switch to using bows or vice versa as needed in combat?

Monsters running out of ammunition?

Spellcasters not bothering with having a focus or material components?

Spellcasters having to make ability checks to place area spells exactly where they want them? (Ok, I know this isn't really a thing, but I couldn't resist, since there are DM's who will demand such of their players, but don't seem to think this applies to their NPC's, lol).

Spellcasters who have actually used up some of their spell slots before encountering the players? (It does happen from time to time, but more often than not, while you're expected to use up all your spells during an adventuring day, enemies usually have their full compliment of resources when you run into them!)

Shield-using spellcasters not having to juggle a weapon out of their hand to cast spells?

Kobolds who have no actual ability to create or even disable traps (no seriously, check their stat block!) living in trap-infested caves?

A lot of rules are just cumbersome and slow down play to begin with, and making the game more fiddly doesn't seem like a great idea. That having been said, I fully support a game that has less "uh, make it up, I guess" in it's rules, not so I can protect myself from the evil DM, but so a DM doesn't have to try and figure out how to patch some inconsistency or corner case on the fly with a ruling that won't be particularly enjoyable.
 



Ah, alright, the fun stuff!

I mean, as a community, how often have you seen:

Monsters armed with shields and melee weapons (like say, Goblins) instantly switch to using bows or vice versa as needed in combat?

I do actually have my monsters drop weapons if they want to quick-switch! It's one of those things my players would call me out on if I didn't.

Monsters running out of ammunition?

Only a few times, but in special situations. Typically I don't find ammo to be too much of a strain in my games.

Spellcasters not bothering with having a focus or material components?

I think I've always assumed they have it. I don't think I've had any players specifically target a components bag or a focus before. :unsure:

Spellcasters having to make ability checks to place area spells exactly where they want them? (Ok, I know this isn't really a thing, but I couldn't resist, since there are DM's who will demand such of their players, but don't seem to think this applies to their NPC's, lol).

lmfao I mean, if I asked my players that, I would totally do the same of myself. What skill would that fall under? Perception? Arcane? A Tool Proficiency? Would I get Advantage if I also knew how to use Carpenter's Tools? :ROFLMAO:

Spellcasters who have actually used up some of their spell slots before encountering the players? (It does happen from time to time, but more often than not, while you're expected to use up all your spells during an adventuring day, enemies usually have their full compliment of resources when you run into them!)

I have, but I would say that, most of the time, they don't. I suppose I could say that, for the most part, it's from the players going after them rather than enemies coming for players. But it's probably something I should think about more..

Shield-using spellcasters not having to juggle a weapon out of their hand to cast spells?

Oh hell no. When I run enemy clerics, they only draw a weapon if you get close and use their shield the entire time. Forcing a dude to draw their weapon up close is a good way of stopping an armored-up cleric from tossing spells. It's also why I'm quick to take Warcaster whenever I play as a Cleric.

Kobolds who have no actual ability to create or even disable traps (no seriously, check their stat block!) living in trap-infested caves?

aDxq2MK_460s.jpg


Oh s#!%, wow. I feel like that's just bad stat-block writing right there. I'd definitely include that in there as a tool proficiency!

A lot of rules are just cumbersome and slow down play to begin with, and making the game more fiddly doesn't seem like a great idea. That having been said, I fully support a game that has less "uh, make it up, I guess" in it's rules, not so I can protect myself from the evil DM, but so a DM doesn't have to try and figure out how to patch some inconsistency or corner case on the fly with a ruling that won't be particularly enjoyable.

Sometimes they can be, certainly. But I also like that rules can make for interesting interactions and reactions. Sometimes getting caught with your pants down and not realizing you had to do something can make for an interesting situation, like sometimes enemies can play things poorly. In particular, I find things like movement restrictions or needing to use certain actions to not be too much of a strain or cumbersome. I think having too many checks can be like that, which is why I think the Weapon Masteries are not great. But I get that it can be different for different GMs.
 


James Gasik

We don't talk about Pun-Pun
Supporter
Ah, alright, the fun stuff!



I do actually have my monsters drop weapons if they want to quick-switch! It's one of those things my players would call me out on if I didn't.



Only a few times, but in special situations. Typically I don't find ammo to be too much of a strain in my games.



I think I've always assumed they have it. I don't think I've had any players specifically target a components bag or a focus before. :unsure:



lmfao I mean, if I asked my players that, I would totally do the same of myself. What skill would that fall under? Perception? Arcane? A Tool Proficiency? Would I get Advantage if I also knew how to use Carpenter's Tools? :ROFLMAO:



I have, but I would say that, most of the time, they don't. I suppose I could say that, for the most part, it's from the players going after them rather than enemies coming for players. But it's probably something I should think about more..



Oh hell no. When I run enemy clerics, they only draw a weapon if you get close and use their shield the entire time. Forcing a dude to draw their weapon up close is a good way of stopping an armored-up cleric from tossing spells. It's also why I'm quick to take Warcaster whenever I play as a Cleric.



View attachment 286292

Oh s#!%, wow. I feel like that's just bad stat-block writing right there. I'd definitely include that in there as a tool proficiency!



Sometimes they can be, certainly. But I also like that rules can make for interesting interactions and reactions. Sometimes getting caught with your pants down and not realizing you had to do something can make for an interesting situation, like sometimes enemies can play things poorly. In particular, I find things like movement restrictions or needing to use certain actions to not be too much of a strain or cumbersome. I think having too many checks can be like that, which is why I think the Weapon Masteries are not great. But I get that it can be different for different GMs.
Those bullet points weren't an accusation against any particular DM mind you, I knew if I said something so silly, I'd immediately get a post like this one with someone claiming "I totally obey all these rules, how dare you insinuate otherwise!". What I'd asked was if people had seen such things occur in play, which I totally have on several occasions, and even from people I wouldn't consider bad DM's.

When you're trying to run an encounter with enemy stat blocks, it's enough to remember how the monster's abilities work as printed, and easy to forget "oh yeah, there's a rule for that". One particularly egregious example I remember was from 4e's Encounters; I was playing an adventure loosely tied to the old Ghost Tower of Inverness module, where a recurring enemy were these ghost soldiers who were equipped with long swords, shields, and crossbows, and they were intended to switch between attacks as needed.

The idea of a ghost soldier just tossing their shield down to shoot at a wizard in the back row struck me as ludicrous, let alone the loss of action economy to do so, and once someone mentioned something, I could see the DM's eyes cross.

Or hell, one of the first Adventure League modules I played in, there was an enemy cleric who used Healing Word the same turn as a levelled spell and nobody seemed to notice. When I mentioned it to the DM, he complained about that being "a stupid rule", lol.

Players were still required to abide by it though!

One thing I've noticed over the years is that even a simple rule can present difficulties when there's enough of them; take for example the diagonal movement rule in 3.5. I had never even considered the ramifications of diagonal movement before, having played a lot of games that simply say "you move X distance on your turn" (most wargames, and even AD&D itself!). By itself, it wasn't a hard rule to remember, but I saw a lot of new 3e players afraid to even move on a battlemap because of having to remember how movement worked, what provokes opportunity attacks, and so on (and add one bit of difficult terrain and their brains completely shut down).

When 4e decided to remove this rule and make all areas squares (hence the infamous firecube!), I was confused at first, but then I realized that gaming in a non-Euclidean world was a sacrifice I could make, since it made a lot of things easier to adjudicate and easier on newer players.

I used to dread entering the third dimension in D&D because of the different ruleset required, much the same way I dreaded "invoking the grapple rules" in 3.x/PF1e. If flying PC's are causing issues, I think there's a better way to handle that than making complex rules that aren't going to affect most PC's in the first place, since they tend to fly magically, which is generally superior to using wings.

TLDR; balancing the game with rules that are annoying to use tends to either result in a soft ban (players avoid the nuisance like the plague) or they find a way to go around said rules (say, magical flight).
 

Those bullet points weren't an accusation against any particular DM mind you, I knew if I said something so silly, I'd immediately get a post like this one with someone claiming "I totally obey all these rules, how dare you insinuate otherwise!". What I'd asked was if people had seen such things occur in play, which I totally have on several occasions, and even from people I wouldn't consider bad DM's.

Oh no, I wasn't implying anything. I just found it fun to compare! :)

When you're trying to run an encounter with enemy stat blocks, it's enough to remember how the monster's abilities work as printed, and easy to forget "oh yeah, there's a rule for that". One particularly egregious example I remember was from 4e's Encounters; I was playing an adventure loosely tied to the old Ghost Tower of Inverness module, where a recurring enemy were these ghost soldiers who were equipped with long swords, shields, and crossbows, and they were intended to switch between attacks as needed.

The idea of a ghost soldier just tossing their shield down to shoot at a wizard in the back row struck me as ludicrous, let alone the loss of action economy to do so, and once someone mentioned something, I could see the DM's eyes cross.

I'll be honest, I don't think I've ever had ghosts carry multiple weapons. In fact, it's weird to consider a ghost switching a weapon in general for me. Huh. :unsure:

Or hell, one of the first Adventure League modules I played in, there was an enemy cleric who used Healing Word the same turn as a levelled spell and nobody seemed to notice. When I mentioned it to the DM, he complained about that being "a stupid rule", lol.

Players were still required to abide by it though!

lol, see that's where I think you shouldn't generally make exceptions, because it makes it more interesting when you do. That's a case where I think the DM and the players should be on the same playing field. Now if people want to make things less punishing for both sides, I do get that: I'm reminded of the popular houserule that makes drinking potions a Bonus Action rather than a full Action. But generally I like to try and act with all the same restrictions as my player. It makes it more fun when I find ways around them. ;)

One thing I've noticed over the years is that even a simple rule can present difficulties when there's enough of them; take for example the diagonal movement rule in 3.5. I had never even considered the ramifications of diagonal movement before, having played a lot of games that simply say "you move X distance on your turn" (most wargames, and even AD&D itself!). By itself, it wasn't a hard rule to remember, but I saw a lot of new 3e players afraid to even move on a battlemap because of having to remember how movement worked, what provokes opportunity attacks, and so on (and add one bit of difficult terrain and their brains completely shut down).

When 4e decided to remove this rule and make all areas squares (hence the infamous firecube!), I was confused at first, but then I realized that gaming in a non-Euclidean world was a sacrifice I could make, since it made a lot of things easier to adjudicate and easier on newer players.

I can understand that sometimes. Certainly things I don't want are stuff like 3E's grapple rules. But I find some level of restriction can make things interesting because sometimes too much openness just allows people to repeat the same stuff over and over.

I used to dread entering the third dimension in D&D because of the different ruleset required, much the same way I dreaded "invoking the grapple rules" in 3.x/PF1e. If flying PC's are causing issues, I think there's a better way to handle that than making complex rules that aren't going to affect most PC's in the first place, since they tend to fly magically, which is generally superior to using wings.

TLDR; balancing the game with rules that are annoying to use tends to either result in a soft ban (players avoid the nuisance like the plague) or they find a way to go around said rules (say, magical flight).

Hey, your game is your game. I get it. I find it interesting to see what people do or don't ignore.
 

Gorck

Prince of Dorkness
Spellcasters who have actually used up some of their spell slots before encountering the players? (It does happen from time to time, but more often than not, while you're expected to use up all your spells during an adventuring day, enemies usually have their full compliment of resources when you run into them!)
I'm not going to comment on your entire thread, but I just wanted to mention this one specifically. I always do this when an enemy's AC says 12 (15 with mage armor). I'll typically have them start the combat with the higher AC and subtract a 1st level slot (assuming they had cast the spell ahead of time since it lasts 8 hours)
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Let's not put words in my mouth. I think there's something to say about making flying feel at least a bit different because not all flight types are the same. The examples that @tetrasodium has in that 3E chart kind of nails how different things should fly differently and how to do that. Sometimes putting rules on things adds options rather than removes them because it means that you don't just need to use one tool for everything.

I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, but trying to point out the logic train here. Sure, not all flight types are the same and you can make rules to make those different types of flight different.... but not all swimming types are the same either. Fish swim radically different than sea turtles do swim radically different than submersibles do. Why not make rules to make those different? On the ground four-legged animals with backward facing knees like dogs run very differently than bipedal animals which run very different than snakes which don't even have legs. Why not make rules for those differences too?

Why only flight? What makes flight deserving of these rules, but running or swimming not? That's the point I'm trying to get to. If making these rules makes flight better and makes the game more fun, why would it not be the same for running or swimming?

But why if it doesn't actually benefit you? It's not that you force the rules to make iconic moments, but have the rules push things to feel like they should: dragons do big straight passes because that's how flight works, not just because "Well, the GM wants it to look like that". If the mechanics aren't making things do what you'd expect, that feels like it's a bad thing, just like having s&@#y underpowered fighters.

But a strafing run can benefit you? The entire point of a strafing run is that you hit the enemy then get back out of reach. That's the point. It isn't because "that's how flight works" because you know what else works with flight? A divebomb. Hawks are quite famous for diving down, and hitting an animal with their talons, breaking its neck and killing it with a powerful single attack. You know what else works with flight? Flying in and battering the target with your wings while you peck at it, which is what many small songbirds to to drive off larger animals. Flight works in a lot of ways.

What you are running into isn't that the rules aren't pushing things, it is that the situation isn't giving an expected value, or it is giving TOO MUCH value. Again, many people I know don't have dragons do strafing runs because it gives the party little to no counterplay and is just "the dragon wins". And to be frank, neither of the rule sets put forth offer any benefit, they offer penalties that need to be avoided.

I mean, I feel like a lot of 5E monsters should be redesigned in general, so I don't see the disadvantage. Putting more detail into flying means that you can create different kinds of tactics so that different kinds of creatures feel differently when they move around via flight, rather than just being walking in the air. I think that's kind of cool and interesting rather than a hindrance, but I also prefer a rules set that is a bit more crunchy. To me, the gain is to actually get some definition in how the monsters work and allows you to create differences in that space where there were none.

I'd rather redesign monsters with the intent of redesigning them to be better, than to redesign monsters because I put a penalty on flight movement that I now need to counteract. And not every monster with flight would benefit from redesigns focused on their flight abilities.

Again, horses and elephants move differently, but we don't exactly need different ground movement rules to reflect this and make them "interesting". There are other, more interesting things we could do, like give elephants a grappling ability.
 

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