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D&D (2024) What's not going to cost discipline points for the Monk to do now?

mellored

Legend
I was suggesting equal damage.

With the Monk being behind to begin in damagen to start with, then putting all the DP into offense needs to add more than rage.

I.e.
Barb is a 6 base and gets +4 from rage
Then
Monk with a 5 base would need +5 Flurry to catch up.

That would still leave the monk behind in survivability.

Sorry if I wasn't clear.
 

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Only in theorycrafting does a class with two d10 attacks and one d4 attack do more damage than a class with four d12 attacks~

But yes, a huge part of Monk Bad rhetoric is the idea that Monks should be able to outperform every other martial in every regard, and if there is a single area that Monk is not consistently superior in, they are useless as a class. They want the class to be able to do more damage than every other martial, move three times farther than anyone else, have superior defenses in every regard, and throw out multiple crippling conditions per turn—and they think the Monk should be able to do all of these things simultaneously and for either inconsequential or even nonexistent resource cost.
 
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mellored

Legend
The damage calculations you were quoting then were flatly incorrect and modeling things other than the claim. What part of "meet or exceed" lost you?
So you think the monk should do less damage, have less survivability, and be less mobile?

Can't even be equal to any of those?
 

Only in theorycrafting does a class with two d10 attacks and one d4 attack do more damage than a class with four d12 attacks~
At first I was going to call this a bad faith argument, but on further reflection I realize that not everyone is good at math, and, while I've posted a link to my spreadsheet for others to examine, not everyone is going to be willing to do that, so that's not the best way of explaining things either. My charts can thus come off as being supported by "Trust me, bro".

So to clear things up, here's a manual breakdown on the math involved.

You seem to be alluding to a barbarian using PAM vs a level 17+ monk, so I'll set things at level 17. Max attribute is 20, and both classes will be assumed to have reached that by that level.

The dice averages for their attacks are 5.5 + 5.5 + 2.5 = 13.5 for the barbarian and 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 = 26 for the monk. That clearly favors the monk.

Then you add the attribute mod — +5, 3 times for the barbarian and 4 times for the monk. Now we're at 28.5 vs 46. Favors the monk even more.

Then you add Rage damage for the barbarian — +4, 3 times, putting it at 40.5 vs the 46 of the monk. Significantly closes the gap, but still favors the monk.

Then you add the Graze weapon mastery. This requires factoring in accuracy. For an accuracy between 60% and 80% (a reasonable range to examine), the barbarian's total (with Graze) becomes between 30.3 and 35.4, while the monk has between 27.6 and 36.8. There's complete overlap now, with the monk potentially doing either less or more than the barbarian. They're almost tied at 70%.

Note: The monk isn't getting any weapon mastery because he's using unarmed strikes (1d12), and there are no weapon masteries for unarmed strikes (yet).

Calculation for 60%: (5.5+5+4)*60% + (5*40%) = 10.7; (2.5+5+4)*60% + (5*40%) = 8.9; 10.7+10.7+8.9 = 30.3

Calculation for 80%: (5.5+5+4)*80% + (5*20%) = 12.6; (2.5+5+4)*80% + (5*20%) = 10.2; 12.6+12.6+10.2 = 35.4

Then you add Great Weapon Master damage. This is useful for the barbarian, but not for the monk (H2H does not qualify for either of the GWM features). Monk doesn't have an equivalent feat for any additional damage boost (aside from Charger, which both can get). That's +6 damage once per turn, between 93.6% and 99.2% of the time (we're not using Reckless Attack yet, but its addition would be just a fraction of a point for this). +5.6 to +5.95 pushes the barbarian to between 35.9 and 41.35 vs the monk's 27.6 to 36.8. And now the barbarian is ahead. (+12% to +30%)

While the barbarian can use Reckless Attack (and gain more damage from Frenzy if it's the Berserker subclass) for advantage, the monk can use Stunning Strike for advantage as well, so I'm not going to do the math on that. The gains will be similar on both sides, though the barbarian's will be more reliable.


I didn't include Charger. Both can gain the same benefit from it, though monk is probably more likely to take it as a feat, in which case it mostly balances out the benefit of GWM, and the two classes are again closer to tied.

So, discounting advantage from Reckless Attack/Stunning Strike, not counting bonus feat damage from GWM/Charger, and not including subclass damage features, the monk and the barbarian generate similar damage output. It does require weapon mastery on the barbarian's part, but also that the monk always uses Flurry of Blows. A more realistic FoB usage rate would largely balance out the lack of weapon masteries, so the PHB damage is likely also similar.

But yes, a huge part of Monk Bad rhetoric is the idea that Monks should be able to outperform every other martial in every regard, and if there is a single area that Monk is not consistently superior in, they are useless as a class. They want the class to be able to do more damage than every other martial, move three times farther than anyone else, have superior defenses in every regard, and throw out multiple crippling conditions per turn—and they think the Monk should be able to do all of these things simultaneously and for either inconsequential or even nonexistent resource cost.
I disagree with the premise. While the monk and barbarian are comparable at baseline, the barbarian has a much higher potential. The ease of using Reckless Attack, not needing to sacrifice your bonus action to use other class features, and (in the PHB) the power attack from GWM vs low AC enemies gives rise to massive potential damage. Alternatively, the UA Berserker's Frenzy plus the new GWM can do similarly. Those damage spikes are memorable, whereas the normal damage isn't. (See also: paladins)

Basically, the monk does OK damage, but it only does "OK" damage. It also does lots of other things (which I think is a large part of the draw of the class), but those other things being so heavily limited by ki/discipline points means that players get neither amazing damage nor amazing thematics (until later levels).

The suggestions I have seen tend to try to boost one or the other. Maybe give Flurry of Blows a third attack in order to be a greater threat on the battlefield, or provide ways of using "lesser" versions of class features without spending DP, so you can still always do monk-like things.

And, for me at least, comparisons with the barbarian (or any other class) is purely as a benchmark to make sure suggested changes do not reach excessive levels. I've spent a lot of time on the barbarian and fighter since UA5, and since they largely feel pretty balanced for their intended purpose, I feel they make good references when examining how other classes behave.
 
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tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
So you think the monk should do less damage, have less survivability, and be less mobile?

Can't even be equal to any of those?
Why is that deserving of an answer? The monk has quite a few abilities. Not all of them fall cleanly under those three labels & one of them is relying on misrepresented or obviously incorrect whiteroom calculations.
  • UAD: This is in direct conflict with the basic style of d&d. I've seen plenty of barbarians wear some form of armor because pumping con+dex and still needing to focus on strength is more difficult than pumping dex+wis and being able to dump strength. This is a subjective tossup with clear strong points that lean towards monk at the expense of the GM's toolbox of incentives gameplay no matter which direction the scales lean.
  • Weapon mastery: I too think weapon mastery is badly designed as was nicely described in post 53 & 56. It's also impossible to rank right now because packet7, pg14:"DESIGN NOTE: MAGIC ITEMS FOR UNARMED STRIKES AND IMPROVISED WEAPONS The 2024 Dungeon Master’s Guide will include magic items that enhance Unarmed Strikes and Improvised Weapons. These items will support the Monk, Brawler Fighter, and College of Dance Bard, along with other characters who rely on Unarmed Strikes or Improvised Weapons."
  • Martial Arts:
    • Bonus unarmed strike: There is no clear comparison but it's already been demonstrated that it compares very favorably to barbarian not using rage
    • Dextrous attacks: Dexterity is quite possibly the more overvalued stat in 5e & this allows monk to ignore strength entirely. There is no comparison
    • Martial Arts Die: This is objectively bad design that disempowers the GM by reducing their ability to incentivize & reward players. Past editions even spoke at length about such things
    • Martial discipline/Totally-not-just-ki discipline points. This is difficult to compare on the objective scale you are asking for but it's worth noting that monk gets to short rest nova with these by abusing shot rest mechanics in a way that hurts the barbarian who would like their rage to continue into the next fight rather than stop for yet another short rest. Barbarian of course has rage uses but those are sensibly linked to long rest recovery to match the attrition based adventuring day design of d&d.
    • Flurry of blows: LeTsTaKeAsHoRtReStLeTsTaKeAsHoRtReSt Once again this is impossible to rate until wotc reveals how they intend to shift from ki points for everything to limited charge but no further resource cost linked abilities. It too has been shown to compare very favorably
    • Patient Defense: LeTsTaKeAsHoRtReStLeTsTaKeAsHoRtReSt Once again this is impossible to rate until wotc reveals how they intend to shift from ki points for everything to limited charge but no further resource cost linked abilities.
    • Step of the Wind: LeTsTaKeAsHoRtReStLeTsTaKeAsHoRtReSt Once again this is impossible to rate until wotc reveals how they intend to shift from ki points for everything to limited charge but no further resource cost linked abilities.
  • Unarmored movement/Fast movement: +10feet is +10 feet but the base rogue does not seem to get this kind of flat +move speed bonus like these two classes
  • Deflect Missiles: There is nothing to compare to because this is a defensive ability that can turn an attack against the monk into an attack against an opponent
  • Slow fall: This is an ill fitting artifact from old school pre-Hickman dungeon crawls where pit traps were common & should be removed. There is nothing to compare it to though.
  • extra attack/extra attack. This is the same feature but while the barbarian specializes in having slightly bigger damage dice the monk has had one or two additional attacks over the barbarian & that will continue. It's already been shown how the monk does quite favorably there
  • Stunning strike: This is abhorrently designed for so many reasons and it's impossible to assign a value without knowing how or if wotc intends to correct it
  • Empowered strike: Deal force damage with unarmed strikes. Force seems to be the damage type magic weapons will be dealing & that makes this pretty equivalent on both sides
  • Evasion: Really tough to compare & difficult to assign a value because so much depends on gameplay & monster/adventure choices the GM makes
  • Heightened metabolism: Again this has no clear comparison & does not fit cleanly into any of your categories. Likewise it too is impossible to rank until we see more about wotc's shift from ki consuming abilities to limited use ones
  • Acrobatic Movement: This ability is written to rob the GM of their ability to engage in step3 of the playloop and should not exist as written. It's impossible to assign value to an ability designed to hold up a hand & say skip to the GM... However, the noclip result can be pretty significant
  • So on & so forth
You are trying to define a class that covers an extremely broad swath of options & abilities based on a blinkered set of metrics that exclude much of the class's capabilities from consideration.[/ispoiler]
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
At first I was going to call this a bad faith argument, but on further reflection I realize that not everyone is good at math, and, while I've posted a link to my spreadsheet for others to examine, not everyone is going to be willing to do that, so that's not the best way of explaining things either. My charts can thus come off as being supported by "Trust me, bro".

So to clear things up, here's a manual breakdown on the math involved.

You seem to be alluding to a barbarian using PAM vs a level 17+ monk, so I'll set things at level 17. Max attribute is 20, and both classes will be assumed to have reached that by that level.

The dice averages for their attacks are 5.5 + 5.5 + 2.5 = 13.5 for the barbarian and 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 + 6.5 = 26 for the monk. That clearly favors the monk.

Then you add the attribute mod — +5, 3 times for the barbarian and 4 times for the monk. Now we're at 28.5 vs 46. Favors the monk even more.

Then you add Rage damage for the barbarian — +4, 3 times, putting it at 40.5 vs the 46 of the monk. Significantly closes the gap, but still favors the monk.

Then you add the Graze weapon mastery. This requires factoring in accuracy. For an accuracy between 60% and 80% (a reasonable range to examine), the barbarian's total (with Graze) becomes between 30.3 and 35.4, while the monk has between 27.6 and 36.8. There's complete overlap now, with the monk potentially doing either less or more than the barbarian. They're almost tied at 70%.

Note: The monk isn't getting any weapon mastery because he's using unarmed strikes (1d12), and there are no weapon masteries for unarmed strikes (yet).

Calculation for 60%: (5.5+5+4)*60% + (5*40%) = 10.7; (2.5+5+4)*60% + (5*40%) = 8.9; 10.7+10.7+8.9 = 30.3

Calculation for 80%: (5.5+5+4)*80% + (5*20%) = 12.6; (2.5+5+4)*80% + (5*20%) = 10.2; 12.6+12.6+10.2 = 35.4

Then you add Great Weapon Master damage. This is useful for the barbarian, but not for the monk (H2H does not qualify for either of the GWM features). Monk doesn't have an equivalent feat for any additional damage boost (aside from Charger, which both can get). That's +6 damage once per turn, between 93.6% and 99.2% of the time (we're not using Reckless Attack yet, but its addition would be just a fraction of a point for this). +5.6 to +5.95 pushes the barbarian to between 35.9 and 41.35 vs the monk's 27.6 to 36.8. And now the barbarian is ahead. (+12% to +30%)

While the barbarian can use Reckless Attack (and gain more damage from Frenzy if it's the Berserker subclass) for advantage, the monk can use Stunning Strike for advantage as well, so I'm not going to do the math on that. The gains will be similar on both sides, though the barbarian's will be more reliable.


I didn't include Charger. Both can gain the same benefit from it, though monk is probably more likely to take it as a feat, in which case it mostly balances out the benefit of GWM, and the two classes are again closer to tied. But monk has no damage boost comparable to Reckless Attack. But that's fine; that's not the primary purpose of what was being compared in the earlier math posts.

So, discounting advantage from Reckless Attack/Stunning Strike, not counting bonus feat damage from GWM/Charger, and not including subclass damage features, the monk and the barbarian generate similar damage output. It does require weapon mastery on the barbarian's part, but also that the monk always uses Flurry of Blows. A more realistic FoB usage rate would largely balance out the lack of weapon masteries, so the PHB damage is likely also similar.


I disagree with the premise. While the monk and barbarian are comparable at baseline, the barbarian has a much higher potential. The ease of using Reckless Attack, not needing to sacrifice your bonus action to use other class features, and (in the PHB) the power attack from GWM vs low AC enemies gives rise to massive potential damage. Alternatively, the UA Berserker's Frenzy plus the new GWM can do similarly. Those damage spikes are memorable, whereas the normal damage isn't. (See also: paladins)

Basically, the monk does OK damage, but it only does "OK" damage. It also does lots of other things (which I think is a large part of the draw of the class), but those other things being so heavily limited by ki/discipline points means that players get neither amazing damage nor amazing thematics (until later levels).

The suggestions I have seen tend to try to boost one or the other. Maybe give Flurry of Blows a third attack in order to be a greater threat on the battlefield, or provide ways of using "lesser" versions of class features without spending DP, so you can still always do monk-like things.

And, for me at least, comparisons with the barbarian (or any other class) is purely as a benchmark to make sure suggested changes do not reach excessive levels. I've spent a lot of time on the barbarian and fighter since UA5, and since they largely feel pretty balanced for their intended purpose, I feel they make good references when examining how other classes behave.
Which of the Onednd UA packets did we see great weapon master in?
 


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
It's in the Expert Classes UA, playtest 2.
1697745520935.png

Glad to clear up which version you were using since it seems like you added damage based on that... What unstated assumptions are you making on those two points as well as additional targets when you added it? You don't seem to have mentioned them.

Your damage calculations seem to dive into needlessly specific build comparisons on top of leaving far too much about the specifics unsaid for them to maintain value as a whiteroom. Also how can you be sure that there won't be a feat that a very specific monk build could take given the tiny slover of feats we have seen?
 

mellored

Legend
Why is that deserving of an answer?
I'm just trying to figure out what your point is.

UAD: This is in direct conflict with the basic style of d&d. I've seen plenty of barbarians wear some form of armor because pumping con+dex and still needing to focus on strength is more difficult than pumping dex+wis and being able to dump strength
Yes. Barbarian can wear armor. Monk's can't.

But in general, that means the same AC. So it's basically left as a wash.
Weapon mastery: I too think weapon mastery is badly designed as was nicely described in post 53 & 56. It's also impossible to rank right now because packet7, pg14:"
Not too hard to calculate Graze, which is why people use it in calculations.

And none of the calculations assume magic weapons.
Dextrous attacks: Dexterity is quite possibly the more overvalued stat in 5e & this allows monk to ignore strength entirely. There is no comparison
Pretty sure anyone can use Dex to attack. Even Barbarians.

Get a shield, rapier, bump Dex and Con and you have your self a very potent tank. High AC, huge HP, and resistance.
  • Martial Arts Die: This is objectively bad design that disempowers the GM by reducing their ability to incentivize & reward players.
Not a terribly interesting design, I agree.
But it a main source of monk scaling. They would be way behind without it.
abusing shot rest.
Step of the Wind: LeTsTaKeAsHoRtReStLeTsTaKeAsHoRtReSt
Patient Defense: LeTsTaKeAsHoRtReStLeTsTaKeAsHoRtReSt
Flurry of blows: LeTsTaKeAsHoRtReStLeTsTaKeAsHoRtReSt
Ahh... maybe this is it.

If your experience with a monk that thet short rest after every battle, then yes. They are probably on the strong side.

But that isn't the common experience. Many tables may not see any short rests.


Also, my suggestions of having a mini version won't really add power in that scenario. It adds power when you don't have DP.
 

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