D&D General Why Isn't There a D&D Table Top Miniatures War Game?

nevin · Jan 22, 2024

or

The Soloist said:
Crap, I meant download (free) illegal STLs.

I'd suggest this guy. 5 dollars a month on patreon gives you access to all his files. They are decent quality and he started by doing all the monsters in monster manual one and continued on from there. He constatantly puts out files and even does special requests from people in the higher tiers. Even his 1 dollar a month tier gives you access to 400 files I think.

mz4250 | Patreon

Creating Free 3D Printable Miniatures for Tabletop Gaming!

www.patreon.com

I've printed several of his files I found him from an article about him trying to do all the monsters in the original monster manuals.

Meech17 · Jan 22, 2024

iPwnedMSCS said:
Do you consider MTG proxies that make no effort to pass themselves off as the original cards illegal?

Edit: I lost track of who's posting what so that question should actually be directed to @The Soloist

"Illegal" is going to be dependent on who you're asking.

I'm not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt, but I'd imagine just the act of reproducing a card without trying to pass it off as legitimate, and without trying to use it for commercial purposes is probably not illegal in the general sense.

Now, these same cards, if you tried to present them to be used in an official sanctioned tournament setting which prohibits the use of non-official cards, that would be illegal within the setting of that tournament, and likely grounds for disqualification.

Edit: Added some words for clarification

The Soloist · Jan 22, 2024

ignore.

Parmandur · Jan 22, 2024

The Soloist said:
ignore.

?

The Soloist · Jan 22, 2024

Parmandur said:
?

I don't understand what you are saying.

We are talking about wargames. If you copy models from 40K, Battletech it is illegal. Even if you do not make money from it. They are trademarks and IP restrictions.

pogre · Jan 22, 2024

Even the market leader, GW, gave up on fantasy mass combat miniatures games for the last six years. I am excited by the initial success of Old World, but we'll see if it is successful long term.

It's a little tougher to incorporate D&D style magic into a mass combat game too. Not saying it cannot be done - just a design consideration.

Finally, if you make a venn diagram of mass fantasy battle enthusiasts, miniature painters, and D&D players - I bet you and I would find it less crowded there than people would think. This is conjecture on my part, but I would bet there are not very many folks who have painted entire fantasy armies.

Meech17 · Jan 22, 2024

The Soloist said:
I don't understand what you are saying.

We are talking about wargames. If you copy models from 40K, Battletech it is illegal. Even if you do not make money from it. They are trademarks and IP restrictions.

Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I believe a big portion of the issue with IP restrictions comes down to a monetization standpoint.

McDonalds owns the rights to the BigMac. You can not open a burger joint and sell a BigMac. McDonalds would be within their rights to sue you and try to shut down your business.

But if inside of your own home kitchen, you make a burger with two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, and onions on a sesame seed bun, and it's identical, and you even decide to put it into a cardboard box and call it a Big Mac before you eat it... Is that a crime?

The Soloist · Jan 22, 2024

Meech17 said:
Again, I'm not a lawyer, but I believe a big portion of the issue with IP restrictions comes down to a monetization standpoint.

McDonalds owns the rights to the BigMac. You can not open a burger joint and sell a BigMac. McDonalds would be within their rights to sue you and try to shut down your business.

But if inside of your own home kitchen, you make a burger with two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, and onions on a sesame seed bun, and it's identical, and you even decide to put it into a cardboard box and call it a Big Mac before you eat it... Is that a crime?

Wrong analogy. Think of it as reproducing music or a movie without permission, and paying who owns it. It's a crime.

If you copy a GW space marines that constitutes IP theft. If you create a derivative space-marine-looking model without any of the copyrighted faction logos, then you are fine.

Stormonu · Jan 22, 2024

The Soloist said:
I don't understand what you are saying.

We are talking about wargames. If you copy models from 40K, Battletech it is illegal. Even if you do not make money from it. They are trademarks and IP restrictions.

If it's a straight up copy of existing models, yeah. There is a lot though, that are original designs or "takes" on those models - or straight-up scratch built (as in Battletech, you can build your own mechs, so you can make your own designs). However, in many cases the likes of GW wants you thinks it's completely illegal (re: Chapterhouse), even when their own designs are often derived from other IP (for ex., the Predator designs of old Eldar Striking Scorpions), or don't have a very firm ground to stand on in the first place (such as Bretonnia knights or Empire).

MGibster · Jan 22, 2024

payn said:
Up until 5E, I think the worry would be splitting the base into two markets that wouldn't really be profitable.

I don't think it'd be splitting the base market as most people I know who play war games like Warhammer or Battletech don't play D&D. Some do, like me, but not most (in my own limited experience). i.e. I don't think it's a significant concern like it is for competing settings like Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc., etc.

Clint_L said:
There’s already Warhammer Fantasy Battle, plus GWs LotR game. A miniatures based game would be very expensive to launch and maintain, and going up against a VERY established market leader…I doubt there’s much upside.

It took years for Warhammer to grow as big as it's become. Back in 1998, you'd be hard pressed to decide which would grow bigger, Warhammer or Battletech. But I suspect you're right. It would take years of effort for D&D to build up a market for their miniatures game and they probably figure that they have better options for return on investment purposes. Still, I would have thought with the backing of Hasbro this is a market they could potentially have some success with.

The Soloist said:
Most 40K players don't play in tournaments. They play in basements with friends.

I'll take this a bit further. I think most people who buy Games Workshop models don't actually play any of their games or at least play them very infrequently.

D&D General Why Isn't There a D&D Table Top Miniatures War Game?

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