D&D General Why Isn't There a D&D Table Top Miniatures War Game?

[payn]

I don't think it'd be splitting the base market as most people I know who play war games like Warhammer or Battletech don't play D&D. Some do, like me, but not most (in my own limited experience). i.e. I don't think it's a significant concern like it is for competing settings like Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc., etc.

I do think so, based on my own experience. I know a number of gamers that would likley be just as happy, if not more, if D&D was more of a wargame. I think this would tear D&D groups apart, split attention of hybrid groups, etc...

It took years for Warhammer to grow as big as it's become. Back in 1998, you'd be hard pressed to decide which would grow bigger, Warhammer or Battletech. But I suspect you're right. It would take years of effort for D&D to build up a market for their miniatures game and they probably figure that they have better options for return on investment purposes. Still, I would have thought with the backing of Hasbro this is a market they could potentially have some success with.

I'll take this a bit further. I think most people who buy Games Workshop models don't actually play any of their games or at least play them very infrequently.

Its kind of funny we have a very big Battletech scene here in the TC. A lot of the players tell me they are into BT because nobody plays WH, they just collect and paint it.

 

[The Soloist]

I'll take this a bit further. I think most people who buy Games Workshop models don't actually play any of their games or at least play them very infrequently.

I agree with this, I've met many buyers in-store who buy but do not play. Some collect and paint, others only collect and don't even glue the models. Some are war game hoarders. I've seen a dysfunctional apartment filled with GW stuff lying around everywhere. It was weird and sad.

 

[MGibster]

Its kind of funny we have a very big Battletech scene here in the TC. A lot of the players tell me they are into BT because nobody plays WH, they just collect and paint it.

Oh, BT has gotten more popular in recent years. But for a while there it was practically on life support. Now you can find BT in many hobby stores and even big box stores like Barnes & Noble.

 

[The Soloist]

Its kind of funny we have a very big Battletech scene here in the TC. A lot of the players tell me they are into BT because nobody plays WH, they just collect and paint it.

Warmachines by Privateer Press was eating up the competitive GW Fantasy players for a while but it fizzled after five years. Now GW games are the only ones played at our FLAGS.

 

[Stormonu]

I don't think it'd be splitting the base market as most people I know who play war games like Warhammer or Battletech don't play D&D. Some do, like me, but not most (in my own limited experience). i.e. I don't think it's a significant concern like it is for competing settings like Dark Sun, Forgotten Realms, Greyhawk, etc., etc.

I think this is the nail on the head right here. The overlap between RPG and TT battles is small. While D&D grew out of TT play, they're essentially separate and appeal to mostly different groups. Yes, there's some overlaps, but there's also some overlap between people who play D&D and who go bowling*. The overlap isn't that big, and its why TSR/WotC never put a big investment into it - they knew their main market, the RPGers, weren't going to be that interested and time/money spent on a TT game is design time/money not spent on the RPG.

* Back in the day, during 2E, one of the groups I played with did Tuesday night bowling. Your bowling score x 10 was XP you got to add to your character. The DM subtracted his score (split among all players) from the total - we had 7-8 players. We usually played 3 games of bowling, and my personal average was about 139 (I was the DM), second best in the group.

 

[The Soloist]

I spent about three years organizing events and demos of cool non-GW games at the local store. None of them could break the GW hold on the vast majority of players, not even Warmachines.

I had about 12 players who tried the new games. I called them my Serial Gamers because they bought all the new wargames I wanted to play. It was a fun ride. (edit: but I quit organizing and playing in stores)

 

[payn]

Oh, BT has gotten more popular in recent years. But for a while there it was practically on life support. Now you can find BT in many hobby stores and even big box stores like Barnes & Noble.

Yeah the resurgence is great. I think the 3D printing became an issue because there is 40 years of gaming material available but Catalyst cant put out product fast enough to meet the demand.

 

[Clint_L]

Almost forgot - The Miniatures Handbook in 3E/3.5E also had rules to turn the skirmish game into a mass combat game, but it never got any traction or support. Also, Birthright had its own mass battle system, which was a hybrid card/board/war game. And there's DL11 - Dragons of Glory, which was a wargame and Battlesystem roster combined.

I've been interested in table top battles ever since I got my copy of 1E battle system. Other than a couple initial games (my gnolls vs. other people using the chits...), I could never get my gaming group to play - even though some of them took up WHFB, Napoleonics, Battletech and the like.

For some reason, tabletop mass battles didn't seem to click with RPG play. I've picked up a variety of additional systems over the years (WHFB, Runewars, Kings of War, Dungeon Command, Chainmail (2001), Age of Sigmar, D&D Minis Skirmishes, D&D Attack Wing - and that's just the fantasy games) and nothing has really stuck with me. A lot of times, I've found that those that play RPGs aren't interested in mass battles, and those that are interested in mass battles don't do RPGs or aren't willing to tie them to an RPG game. It's confounding as a DM.

As an (at times) avid player of both genres, they kind of scratch different but related itches, and both take a lot of time and energy, so when I was playing a ton of Warhammer I barely played TTRPGs, and vice versa.

In terms of experience, I find wargaming to be like playing chess. It's competitive, and you spend a ton of time planning and strategizing, not to mention prepping. TTRPGs are cooperative, and as I've aged I find I just enjoy that more. Even more time goes into prepping, though.

 

[Stormonu]

Yeah the resurgence is great. I think the 3D printing became an issue because there is 40 years of gaming material available but Catalyst cant put out product fast enough to meet the demand.

On top of the ol' unseen*. Those Dougram & Macross/Robotech mechs are what got me interesting in playing BT in the first place. Glad to see them return.

* Locust, Wasp, Stinger, Crusader, Archer, Warhammer, Phoenix Hawk, Shadow Hawk, Longbow, Wolverine, Marauder, Battlemaster, Griffin, Rifleman, Thunderbolt, Scorpion & Goliath

 

[Parmandur]

I don't understand what you are saying.

We are talking about wargames. If you copy models from 40K, Battletech it is illegal. Even if you do not make money from it. They are trademarks and IP restrictions.

if people design their own models and then just use the rules, nothing illegal there.