D&D (2024) In Interview with GamesRadar, Chris Perkins Discusses New Books

Kurotowa

Legend
Virtually all the theorycrafting is based on someone's very limited experience with their particular group and has then massaged the numbers to "prove" that this should be a problem at everyone's table and then will dig in and absolutely refuse to accept that the problems that they've "identified" through "math" are actually just self-justification and confirmation bias.

The fact that people will 100% argue that other people's actual play experience don't actually matter and then refuse to actually test their own math shows how entrenched the idea that you can simply mathematically model something as complex as an RPG and reduce it down to a couple of simple calculations.

Theorycrafting, like I said, can identify potential problems, but, is not proof of anything other than people's inbuilt, internalized biases..
Like calling frontliners "tanks", theorycrafting and DPR are imports from video games that mesh imperfectly with a TTRPG. When you're talking about fighting a raid boss in an MMORPG, theorycrafting an optimal build and rotation for maximum DPS is a legitimate goal. I mean, it's not a precise science because when you're not hitting a training dummy the encounter type and boss abilities matter, and you can't always use the mathematically optimal rotation because execution difficulty also matters when a human has to do it. But the conditions are controlled enough, and the randomness is limited enough, that it's a useful tool.

Most of that all goes out the window with a TTRPG. The dice produce a wider range of results. The NPCs don't have to follow mechanically pre-scripted routines. The players too aren't limited to specifically allowed actions that aren't attacks. The encounter terrain is far more varied and interactable. Narrative input from all parties is encouraged, and can a substantial impact.

Is there are a place for theorycraft in TTRPGs? Yes, but only in broad strokes. It's helpful for pointing out glaring errors in class balance. It's good for turning up interesting new builds to try out. But it's not good for attempting rigorous optimization, and it's not useful when you're zooming in close for a difference of a few DPR.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Hussar

Legend
@Kurotowa - thank you for saying that better than I did. :D

It's kinda frustrating to be honest. It's largely why I avoid rules discussions on the board as much as I can. Because you can't counter theorycrafting. Because it's largely so opaque and based on unspoken presumptions, it's virtually impossible to actually refute. The only real refutation is actual play. Going out and demonstrating that these assumptions don't hold up in play.
 

And, as usual: "You must be wrong and the things you want must be bad, because what we actually got sold."
And as usual... totally misreprenting what was actually said.
"People tell me my preferences are bad because they are unpopular."
No. They are currently just not popular. Not bad.

Some people are lucky because the current edition quite fits their taste.
 

If it has nothing to do with "I'm right and you're wrong," why on earth are you constantly making appeals to popularity?
Why do you confuse liking the current edition with appeal to popularity?

Can't you really imagine that there are way more people who like 5e because of the way it is than people who hate it?

4e would have never failed if anything sells that has D&D on it.
 


Considering it didn't fail, it just wasn't a wild, runaway success, I don't think we have anything further to say to one another that would be even remotely productive on this topic.
It was a failure for me. I tried to make it work for me and my group. And it was a failure for many other people. So much that WotC decided that continuing that game would not make sense for them.

In the end it was a runaway success in the sense that people around me ran away from it.

So I was really happy when D&D next started. And I am still happy.

And I see you are still sad that 4e and don't accept that fact that you were a minority at that time.
That still does not mean that popular = good. It is all about different prefetences. Sometimes you happen to like what many people like. Sometimes it is just the opposite.

Calling that "appeal to popularity" shows that you try to undermine some else's preference.
 

TheSword

Legend
To change the subject slightly. My big takeaway from this interview is how 5e truly has broken the boom-and-bust mold from earlier editions. Or at least stretched the lifespan out significantly.

The bloat followed by a clean slate and an entire new product range along (with everything that comes with that) seems to be over. That is a pretty incredible thing.
 

@Kurotowa - thank you for saying that better than I did. :D

It's kinda frustrating to be honest. It's largely why I avoid rules discussions on the board as much as I can. Because you can't counter theorycrafting. Because it's largely so opaque and based on unspoken presumptions, it's virtually impossible to actually refute. The only real refutation is actual play. Going out and demonstrating that these assumptions don't hold up in play.
My play experience adter 9 years and hundreds of games with dozens of people is that the sorcerer is mid as hell and needed a rework. Same for ranger. Same for monk. And barbarians. Now sorcerers have a magical transformation feature, monks completely remade, rangers are remade, and barbarians are heavily buffed. I can point to my play experiences over theorycrafting, and my experiences are reflected in wotcs choices. So lets stop assuming everyone complaining is all theorycrafting, and that the complaints have no basis in reality.
 
Last edited:

Oofta

Legend
My play experience adter 9 years and hundreds of games with dozens of people is that the sorcerer is mid as hell and needed a rework. Same for ranger. Same for monk. And barbarians. Now sorcerers have a magical transformation feature, monks completely remade, rangers are remade, and barbarians are heavily buffed. I can are play experience over theorycrafting, and my experiences are reflected in wotcs choices. So lets stop assuming everyone complaining is all theorycrafting, and that the complaints have no basis in reality.

Nobody has said the game is perfect. It can't be. In a similar way, with as many options as we have for classes, some are going to be more popular than others. You can't have every class be above average. Fortunately if you don't like a class there are other options.

Which is not to say they can't look at improvements. They can, and are. Just don't expect a perfect solution or for each class to be perfectly balanced with the other classes because that will never happen. I'm sure next year at this time we'll have plenty of thread that X is terrible design because it's not as good as the other classes.
 

Nobody has said the game is perfect. It can't be. In a similar way, with as many options as we have for classes, some are going to be more popular than others. You can't have every class be above average. Fortunately if you don't like a class there are other options.

Which is not to say they can't look at improvements. They can, and are. Just don't expect a perfect solution or for each class to be perfectly balanced with the other classes because that will never happen. I'm sure next year at this time we'll have plenty of thread that X is terrible design because it's not as good as the other classes.
You're god dang right we will. They'll hit 100 pages too.
 

Remove ads

Top