D&D (2024) 2024 - Do magic weapons bypass resistance now?
- Thread starter Stalker0
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I really wish all the DnD horror fans had drifted off to other games. I wonder how much of the arguing over overpowered mages and power creep would go away if the horror style players drifted off to games designed to be horror instead of of D&d. It really is a terrible system for you if that's the kind of game you want
jgsugden
Legend
Again, having the rules enables their use. Excluding the rules makes it so that it is not an option.
This is not a playstyle option. It is a play availability.
As already addressed - you can houserule all you want in either direction, but building the option into the game without requiring houseruling makes it an available supported option while excluding it ... it leaves the game lesser for all the reasons stated above.
Going back to my prior comparison: Should they take ranged combat out of the game? All ranged abilities? Some PCs do not have ranged weapons. Isn't the game going to be better if we take ranged abilities out of the game because those PCs do not have a way to deal with a foe at range? Of course not.
This was a mechanic designed to open up story options. It enables certain ways the game can work. Removing it just diminishes the options. Nothing forces a DM to use the option, although I will argue they are missing out if they never experience it in the way I, and the people I've played with have experienced. However, excluding it from the game diminishes the game as written.
This is one of those things that really isn't about opinion. It is as simple as math - more or less. You have more options with it - less without it. You can say you feel entitled to think 5 is more than 6 ... but it never will be.
You keep saying things like how you've explained everything clearly and I'm just not following. So I double checked every post (I don't think I missed anything). What I found? A lot of repetition that "it's a puzzle" and "I have no issue with it so if you do it's you're just a controlling DM who doesn't allow any out of the box thinking" (#41).
The only "solution" though was either burying the enemy or getting a weapon that overcomes the damage. In post #9 you talking about using "the DM's weird grappling rules" to bury a Jackalwere. You repeat it in post #53, this time using a shatter. In that same post you talk about the ranger drawing the monster away and then escaping. Except a Jackalwere has 40 foot movement so it's assuming that the ranger can both lure the creature away and has enough movement to keep ahead of it. In #48 you give the characters an axe that can harm the creature.
So far you haven't given any examples of an effective solution outside of restraining the creature or having a character which can both lure the creature away somehow while also being fast enough to escape. Unless the restraint is permanent or the creature is somehow unable to pick up the trail of the multiple individuals that ran away those are just delaying tactics. Slowing down a monster can be quite useful, I had my summoned steed grapple a fiend and drag it off so it couldn't attack the group for a couple rounds in my last game, but it just delays the inevitable.
I have no problem challenging players, allowing inventive solutions or having situations they can't tackle head on but immunity to all damage that's not magical or silvered is something I've always disliked and I'm glad it's gone.
jgsugden
Legend
So you need more than two broad solutions for a problem for there to be enough solutions for it to be worth having a mechanic that creates fun story opportunities? There are hundreds, if not of thousands, of well known horror/fantasy stories where this concept is explored - and they are not all the same. They play very differently. You bundle all of the ideas of restraining under one label, but that solution can manifest in many different ways.
Again - THAT is the puzzle to explore when a monster has these abilities and you do not have a magic bypass tool.
Getting frustrated because you do not have an easy answer is entirely missing the point of the puzzle. Scratch that - because you don't like that there are two types of answers per your review ... which don't include luring it away, using a reflection to make it put itself to sleep, or anything else inventive PCs might figure out based upon what the DM gives them.
You're right that I repeat myself. I often do that because people ignore that the concern they've raised has already been answered. That is the case here.
The two broad solutions (neither one of which applies very often) are the only two you've stated. What are the other options?
Let's take a scenario. A 4 person party, 2nd level, with a fighter, rogue, cleric and wizard. The cleric has sacred flame as a damaging spell, for damage the wizard has the fire bolt cantrip, magic missile and thunderwave prepared. The group is investigating murders in the area and everyone points you to the old farmhouse on the hill (note: there may be innocents inside). Entering the dilapidated house you encounter one or more jackalweres. What can the fighter and rogue contribute to the fight if they do not have silver or magical weapons? Because the casters can maybe take out a single jackalwere but more than 1? I think the group would be in trouble. According to the new guidelines they should be able to face 4 of them and it's still an easy fight.
This isn't a gotcha question, I just don't know what actions you think the martial characters can take. But there are hundreds if not thousands of options so what are some of them?
Kinematics
Hero
What I would do is something like:
A werecreature (or other similar creatures) has regen. It gains (say) 10 HP at the start of each of its turns. It does not regen if it is unconscious.
The goal for the players is to reduce the creature to 0 HP, because at that point it is unconscious (not dead) and does not get to regen. Then the players might be able to use a special action or ritual (eg: burning a troll) to properly kill it. If they don't have a way to properly kill it, then it moves into standard unconscious rules, where a creature recovers after a short rest (1 hour), giving the players time to run away and come up with a different plan.
Whether players have magical weapons or not does not have any direct effect, other than doing more damage at a time, and thus being better able to overcome the regen.
However if you hit a werecreature with a silver weapon (or whatever other appropriate material), it can't regain hit points until the end of your next turn. (Same as Chill Touch text.) That makes them much easier to knock unconscious (particularly if fights are spread out, and not doing focus fire).
Higher CR creatures might get their regen as part of their legendary reactions, maybe even as a side benefit tacked onto other actions/reactions, just to make them that much harder to kill. But the overall principle is the same.
At base, though, having or not having magical weapons does not really change the outcome. Not having resistance to a particular damage type also means there's no preference for martial vs caster damage. And if you have an unconventional way of doing sufficient damage — such as dropping the werewolf off of a cliff — that's sufficient to defeat the enemy, even if it won't kill the creature. That werewolf will be unconscious on the canyon floor for an hour, but won't die. It also won't be immediately climbing back up to continue the fight, either, though.
Anyway, this avoids the question of resistances entirely. If you need a creature to have a "resistance", just give it more HP. Same effect. There's no huge bias between magic and non-magic damage. Even immunities could be modeled with more HP, if you still want the creature to be technically defeatable. Maybe the ghost has 1000 HP instead of 100. I'm less certain on that front, though.
Also note that this is primarily for the purpose of creatures where their resistance is a large part of the difficulty of fighting them. A red dragon with immunity to fire is a different aspect of the creature build. If a resistance was able to be overcome with magic or magic weapons, use the regen concept instead. If the resistance is just an intrinsic part of the creature, leave it alone.
A werecreature (or other similar creatures) has regen. It gains (say) 10 HP at the start of each of its turns. It does not regen if it is unconscious.
The goal for the players is to reduce the creature to 0 HP, because at that point it is unconscious (not dead) and does not get to regen. Then the players might be able to use a special action or ritual (eg: burning a troll) to properly kill it. If they don't have a way to properly kill it, then it moves into standard unconscious rules, where a creature recovers after a short rest (1 hour), giving the players time to run away and come up with a different plan.
Whether players have magical weapons or not does not have any direct effect, other than doing more damage at a time, and thus being better able to overcome the regen.
However if you hit a werecreature with a silver weapon (or whatever other appropriate material), it can't regain hit points until the end of your next turn. (Same as Chill Touch text.) That makes them much easier to knock unconscious (particularly if fights are spread out, and not doing focus fire).
Higher CR creatures might get their regen as part of their legendary reactions, maybe even as a side benefit tacked onto other actions/reactions, just to make them that much harder to kill. But the overall principle is the same.
At base, though, having or not having magical weapons does not really change the outcome. Not having resistance to a particular damage type also means there's no preference for martial vs caster damage. And if you have an unconventional way of doing sufficient damage — such as dropping the werewolf off of a cliff — that's sufficient to defeat the enemy, even if it won't kill the creature. That werewolf will be unconscious on the canyon floor for an hour, but won't die. It also won't be immediately climbing back up to continue the fight, either, though.
Anyway, this avoids the question of resistances entirely. If you need a creature to have a "resistance", just give it more HP. Same effect. There's no huge bias between magic and non-magic damage. Even immunities could be modeled with more HP, if you still want the creature to be technically defeatable. Maybe the ghost has 1000 HP instead of 100. I'm less certain on that front, though.
Also note that this is primarily for the purpose of creatures where their resistance is a large part of the difficulty of fighting them. A red dragon with immunity to fire is a different aspect of the creature build. If a resistance was able to be overcome with magic or magic weapons, use the regen concept instead. If the resistance is just an intrinsic part of the creature, leave it alone.
jgsugden
Legend
If you're not going to even bother to read my post ... sigh You just included in the quote a couple additional options that allow the PCs to best the threat: Reflecting the gaze to put it to sleep and luring it away. AND ONCE AGAIN: This is the puzzle for the PCs to resolve. You're rambling about the lack of answers to a puzzle when four broad examples have been provided and there are countless variants of most of them that could be attempted.
Off the top of my head:
- Collapse part of the house on them to trap them.
- Use a mirror to reflect gazes to put them to sleep.
- Drag them to a constraining or damaging situation.
- Throw oil on them so that the firebolt does extra damage.
- Lure them away from the house to protect the residents (and allies - fighters have the hp to spare).
- Throw acid.
- I'll mention poisoning a weapon - but that is expensive!
- Throw a threat in a room and hold the door closed so that the other PCs can focus on foes one at a time.
- Seduce a Jackalwere (I'm not judging - BG3 opened doors).
- Negotiate - they're still intelligent creatures and whack sticks are not the only answer to a problem.
- Intimidate it - they are labeled as cowards after all in the description.
Additionally, anything else the DM sets up. If there is a chandelier described, perhaps that could be dropped on them. If the DM put a magic weapon in the house (either rolled up or intentionally placed) as an heirloom, get that (which would potentially give the PCs the option to struggle against the ability and overcome it all in the same adventure). Etc...
How? It's a house.
That's not how the gaze works, it's one creature the creature can see. I mean, it's fine if they happen to have a mirror and the DM ignores how the rule works.
What constraining or damaging situation? If it exists, it's outside the control of the players. If there's a cliff handy the fall does no damage to the Jackalwere unless there are silver spikes at the bottom. I agree they could grapple the critter which would slow them down a bit, assuming they want to self-sacrifice but a grappled creature can attack the grappler without penalty.
I don't remember the last time anyone actually had or used oil, but you are correct if the target fails their save they would take 5 extra points of damage. Current rules DC is 8 + Dex + proficiency so my low dex strength based paladin would likely fail.
This just delays the monster which can be useful. But it assumes they can lure away the creature has a 40 foot movement rate which means they will never be able to get away. Nice way to commit suicide.
Another thing I don't think I've seen used, at 25 GP it's expensive for 2d4 damage and a dex save.
I don't allow poison for various reasons and, unless you have a special class feature I don't remember any DM allowing it.
No bard in the party so nothing to throw.
Still no bard in the party.
Always an option of course, but these are murderous fiends that look at people as prey. Could it work? Possibly. Will it work? Highly unlikely
Again with the trapping. I have no problem dropping a light fixture on people, but this is very situational (most farmhouses don't have chandeliers), requires explicit traps for the DM to set up. Putting a magic weapon in the house is just the DM providing them with the equipment they need. Both are out of control of the players.
So we have restrain and hope the person doing it survives, lure it away, contain them somehow and throw oil or acid. Preventng them from attacking others can slow them down and if it's a grapple the Jackalwere just focuses fire on the character grappling. Lure away just means the character doing the luring is committing slow suicide as best I can tell unless they have some magical way of disappearing or teleporting at some point and it's just a delaying tactic. Neither helps a whole lot if there's more than 1 Jackalwere against this party.
I don't remember the last time I saw oil or acid used in any game I've run or played but those could potentially add 5 or 2d6 points of damage here and there depending on which is used. At least oil is cheap, acid is expensive at an average of 6.5 points of damage and both are best used by a character with a good dex.
So I'm still sticking with the "I've never liked it and I'm glad it's gone". We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this.
mellored
Legend
Ranged is fine.
Acid or fire damage to shut down regeneration is fine.
Getting healed with Lightning damage is fine.
Vulnerable to bludgeoning or radiant is fine.
Weaknesses to creatures with bless is fine.
High AC and low Dex saves is fine.
All and more are still in the game.
(Though mainly have been reduced from Immunity to Resistance, so you can still do something if your caught out of your element.)
But magic weapons just doesn’t make anything interesting. It's not a player choice. It's not picking between Ray of frost or Firebolt. You didn't make or build it. You couldn't scout out the creature and seek our a knowledgeable sage to find it's weaknesses. You didn't hunt down Medusa's head to kill the Kraken.
Nor is it reusable. If you got a magic weapon for jaklewere, then the golem doesn't get to use it's feature. Or any other creature you fought that had Immunity to non-magic weapons and didn't even notice.
I get your DM made it work for you, and that's great. But it's a credit to them, not the mechanic.
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