AD&D/OSRIC: How did initiative work?

AD&D initiative according to the PHB was simple 1d6 side-based initiative.

It only became a nightmare if you tried to follow every subsequent book and magazine article that fiddled with the system and added mountains of caveats.
Its the DMG...so many places in such dense text. (My memory of weapon speeds used on a tie is in fact there, but under "strike blows", not "Initiative...ties".)
 

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2e did a lot to simplify initiative, though it did so with three different tiers of individual initiative (not counting the entirely different rules from Combat & Tactics.

Basic rule: Each side rolls d10 each round. Lowest goes first. The only modifiers that apply are those that cover that whole side.
Intermediate: Each side rolls d10 each round. Each combatant then adds their own initiative modifiers depending on action, with casting time and weapon speed being the most common. Lowest goes first.
Advanced: As Intermediate, except each combatant also gets their own d10.

Combat & Tactics: The round is split into five phases: Very fast, Fast, Normal, Slow, and Very slow (it's uncommon for things to happen in the Very fast/slow phases – those are primarily there for things that are normally fast/slow but for some reason become faster/slower). Each action has a pre-determined phase depending on things like weapon speed/casting time. Each side rolls d10 each round, with lowest going first in each phase (so the order goes low Very Fast, high Very Fast, low Fast, high Fast, and so on). If a side rolls a 1 or a 10, they go one step faster or slower in that round. If both sides roll the same number, a random event happens.
 


AD&D initiative according to the PHB was simple 1d6 side-based initiative.

It only became a nightmare if you tried to follow every subsequent book and magazine article that fiddled with the system and added mountains of caveats. Like, for example, the ridiculous ADDICT PDF already posted. It's rubbish. It was written from the false and entirely modern assumption that everyone played RAW and obsessively collected every book and magazine article and collated them all together. That's not how people actually played.
Untrue. As Bill pointed out, the vast majority of the rules cited in ADDICT are straight out of the DMG. I think your characterization is unfair and inaccurate. The only place a Dragon article gets cited for rules (as opposed to just references to the names, levels, or equipment of characters in the examples) is the one developing percentage-based math to reconcile differing surprise chances for monsters and classes which have special rules giving them and their foes different odds than 2 in 6, which create direct conflicts that the PH & DMG give you no guidance to resolve.

Dave Prata did his level best to show all the rules, and I think your thesis is backwards, because I suspect part of his motivation was to show how convoluted and detailed the RAW are, and prove a point to folks who insisted that they play AD&D 1E totally RAW and that it's not hard to do so. Which used to be a pretty common sentiment in OSR circles 20 years ago. (I still see it occasionally).

The PH gives a much simpler procedure, that's true, probably because the DMG was still being worked on and didn't come out until more than a year later (late '79). The PH procedure is definitely incomplete, though, as it doesn't explain how the illusionist in the example of play has his spell ruined by a spear throw, despite winning initiative in the first round of combat (PH p105). A lacuna similar to one from B/X, where the party gets off an arrow shot before their enemies move, also in a round where they lost initiative. AD&D at least has a procedure where this can happen, if you use the DMG rules.

If you want to ignore the actual AD&D initiative rules from the DMG I can hardly blame you, though. That's a time-honored tradition! :LOL:

No two people can 100% agree on how AD&D initiative worked, but here are my 2 coppers:

After surprise is resolved (that is a WHOLE other post) spell casters must declare their spells.

Both sides rolled a d6, generally high wins initiative and goes first, with the understanding that movement is outside of the initiative process (if you want to move, you can start at segment 1, even if you lost initiative).

EXCEPT>>>>
If a missile weapon user is firing at a spell caster, and lost initiative, the spell caster must still compare their casting time against their own initiative roll. If the casting time is greater than the initiative roll, the missile hits first. If the casting time is less than the initiative roll, then spell goes first. Tied initiative goes to the missile attacker.

If a spell caster is casting against another caster, compare casting times, with lower going first. If casting times are equal, default to initiative order. If CT's are equal, and initiative order is tied, spells are simultaneous.

If a melee attacker is charging a spell caster (melee range is considered within 10 feet in the dungeon and 10 yards outdoors), you must compare the movement time in segments to the casting time. If movement is closed to within 10' before the casting time, melee goes first. If movement is closed to 10' on the casting time segment (3 segments of movement against a 3 segment spell) then default to initiative order. If initiative is tied, it is simultaneous.

If a spell caster is trying to cast WITHIN melee, and the melee attacker lost initiative, determine the absolute value of the Weapon Speed Factor minus the losing initiative roll. If the absolute value is higher than the casting time, the spell goes first. If the ABS value is less than the CT, the melee attack goes first. If initiative is tied, just compare the WSF to the CT, lower goes first.

When it is melee vs. melee, standard initiative is the default. UNLESS one player has multiple attacks, in which case that attacker always goes first AND last, regardless of initiative. If BOTH have multiple attacks, the initiative winner goes first and third, and the loser goes second and fourth. If there is a third extra attack, it goes last.

Melee v. melee when there is no multi-attacks, and the initiative is tied, defaults to Weapon Speed Factors, lower goes first. If the difference between WSF's are large enough, the faster weapon can get multiple attacks.

During a charge, initiative is not used - the longer weapon goes first.
Well done! Although a slight correction to your last line- any time you're closing to melee the longer weapon strikes first. That includes but is not limited to charges.
 
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It was a big mess, and every group ended upon with variation based on what they liked, which rules they read first and general vibe.

The way I ran it was this:
  • Everyone declares actions
  • Each side rolls a d6
  • Each person adds their weapon speed or spell casting speed or zero (for other actions) to their side's initiative roll
  • Count upwards from 1 and take actions.
  • Resolve ties as having simultaneous effect
I liked that it incentivized faster weapons. Sure, the big guy with the 2H axe will do a ton of damage, but only after the caster attacks him. But dagger-wielding rogue gets a chance to hit and disrupt the caster first.

It's also really fast in practice, because players know their speed factors, they basically know their own order.
 

Just for perspective, the Magic: The Gathering Comprehensive rules just for Turn Structure (Rule 500f) is already 15 (full) pages. Just because the rules document is long doesn't mean its necessarily convoluted or complex in a bad way.


Because people just get good at processing Untap-Upkeep-Draw-Main1-Precombat-Declare Attackers-Declare Blockers-First Strike Damage-Damage Step-Last Strike-Main 2-End Step-Cleanup/Discard because every time you play the game you don't have to process everything, especially if those game pieces aren't even in play or relevant to the game state.

I think it is probably similar to AD&D. You get into the groove of initiative because your adventurers are mostly going to be similar things each encounter and the monsters just fit into that template. If you don't run psionics, you can just ignore that catch case altogether, it might as well not exist.

Also the "20 page" ADDICT document is a joke. Half the page is just empty whitespace and the non PHB/DMG references are from the example of play. And half of it is another example of play section.
 

This is why, when I played AD&D back in the Reagan years, I always brought a lawyer with me.

"I'm going to pull out my longsword and attack those goblins! And I believe you all know Mr. Cohen."
 
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To prove a point, here is Addict without examples of play and all the painstaking reference cut out. 4 Pages.

Markdown (GitHub flavored):
# ADDICT - LITE

Compiled by David M. Prata (“DMPrata”), shortened by aiouh
Version 2.2 (19 March 2006)
ENCOUNTERS, COMBAT, AND INITIATIVE

I. Determine if either or both parties are surprised.

A. Normally, a d6 is rolled for each party. A roll of 1 or 2 indicates surprise.

1. Some individuals, notably rangers, are surprised less often — 1 in 6 (162/3%) less often, in the case of rangers. This benefit accrues to the entire party.
2. Some individuals, notably rangers, surprise others more often — 1 in 6 (162/3%) more often, in the case of rangers. This benefit, however, does not accrue to the entire party.
3. Where either side uses a die other than d6 to determine surprise, convert to percentages (e.g., 1 in 8 equals 121/2%, 9 in 10 equals 90%, etc.).

B. If neither party is surprised, proceed to step II.

C. If either or both parties are surprised, use the result of that side’s d6 roll to determine for how long they are surprised.

1. Each pip on the d6 equals one segment of inactivity due to surprise.
2. In cases where percentages were used, divide the result of the d% roll by 162/3 (rounding all
fractions up) to determine the number of segments lost.
The duergar roll a 12 on d%, so they will be surprised for one segment.
3. If only one side was surprised, then it will be inactive for the indicated number of segments.
4. If both sides are surprised, subtract the lesser result from the greater to determine the net amount of
segments lost to the more-surprised side.
5. Characters with Dexterity reaction adjustments are individually surprised for more or less segments than the rest of their side, depending on the amount of the penalty or bonus.
a. This only applies when the character’s side is already surprised. A reaction penalty does
not create surprise in an unsurprised individual.
b. Reaction bonuses do not apply to characters carrying more than “light gear” (12” base movement), although reaction penalties always do.
6. A surprised character armed with a crossbow of speed can fire it in the 2nd segment of surprise, if he is surprised for more than one Segment.

D. During each segment of surprise, members of the non-surprised side can perform one of the following actions.

1. Make a full round of melee attacks in one segment.
2. Make a full round of missile attacks in one segment (or three times that rate if the missiles are
ready).
3. Take one segment of movement (1’ per 1” of movement rate).
4. Cast a one-segment spell, or begin casting a longer spell.
5. Spend one segment performing any other action that can normally be completed in six seconds

E. An individual who, due to a reaction bonus, is surprised for fewer segments than the rest of his side can only perform actions D 3-5, above, during the segments that he is no longer surprised.

F. Similarly, an individual who, due to a reaction bonus, is surprised for fewer segments than the rest of his side cannot be targeted by actions D 1-2, above, during the segments that he is no longer surprised.

V. Resolve psionic combat on a segment-by-segment basis.

A. Compare each psionic’s chosen attack mode to his opponent’s chosen defense mode. ALL ATTACKS AND DEFENSES ARE SIMULTANEOUS.
B. Adjust attack and defense strength totals to reflect that segment’s expenditures, as well as any points lost due to attack.
C. Repeat steps A & B until the psionic combat has ended, one or both psionics are affected by a more mundane attack form during the round, or ten segments have passed.

VI. Determine initiative for the round by rolling a d6 for each side. The higher of the two rolls is said to possess the initiative for that melee round.

A. Each participant does not make a separate initiative roll. However, the Dexterity Attacking adjustment is added to (or subtracted from) the initiative roll for each missile-firing combatant on an individual basis.

1. Initiative bonuses do not apply to characters carrying more than “light gear” (12” base
movement).
2. Initiative penalties always apply.

B. One exceptional monster, the spectator, rolls d8 for initiative, rather than d6.

C. Certain magic items, notably the crossbow of speed, short sword of quickness, and
scimitar of speed, allow the wielder to strike first regardless of the initiative result.

VII. Generally, the results of whatever actions are decided upon by the party with initiative are determined first, followed by the results of whatever actions are decided upon by the party which lost the initiative.75 Ties usually indicate that attacks occur simultaneously. Special cases are listed below.

A. Multiple Attack Routines: When one or more creatures involved in combat are permitted to use their attack routines twice or more often during the round, then the following initiative determinants are employed.

1. When the attack routine may be used twice, then allow the side with this advantage to attack FIRST and LAST with those members of its group who have this advantage.
a. If it is possessed by both parties, the initiative roll determines which group strikes FIRST
and THIRD, which group strikes SECOND and LAST.
b. If one or both groups have members allowed only one attack routine, it will always fall in
the middle of the other attacks, the order determined by dicing for initiative, when necessary.
2. If one party has the ability to employ its attack routines thrice, then the other party dices for initiative to see if it, or the multi-routine group, strikes first in the mid-point of the round.
3. Extrapolate for routines which occur four or more times in a round by following the method
above.
4. Note that a routine is the attack or attacks usual to the creature concerned, i.e. a weapon (or
weapons) for a character, a claw/claw/bite routine for a bear (with incidental damage assessed as it occurs — the hug, for example). A 12th level fighter is allowed attack routines twice in every odd numbered melee round, for example, and this moves up to three per round if a haste spell is cast upon the fighter.
5. This rule applies to multiple missile attacks as well as to multiple melee attacks; thus, a longbow (rate of fire 2) will generally fire FIRST and LAST in the round.

B. Charge: Normal melee is not possible when the opponents begin the round over 1” distant. A round must be spent closing. Alternatively, the attacker may choose to charge. This action brings the charging party into combat on the charge round, provided movement rate (plus bonus) allows this.

1. Movement Rate of Charging Creatures:
a. Outdoors, charging bipeds receive a 1/3 movement bonus. Charging quadrupeds receive
a 1/2 movement bonus.
b. Indoors, movement rate for all charging creatures is doubled.93
c. Encumbered creatures may not charge.
2. Armor Class of Charging Creatures:
a. There is no dexterity bonus allowed for charging creatures.
b. Creatures with no dexterity bonus become one armor class worse.
c. There is no penalty to AC 10 creatures for charging, however.
3. Melee at End of Charge:
a. Initiative is NOT checked at the end of charge movement.
b. The opponent with the longer weapon/reach attacks first.
c. Charging creatures gain +2 on their “to hit” dice if they survive any opponent attacks
which occur first.
4. To detemine the timing of a charge attack vs. an opposing spell caster, compare the segments of movement required to the casting time of the spell.

C. Spell Casting: Even when a spell caster has won the initiative, it is possible for an opponent’s attack to occur before the completion of (and thus disrupt) the spell.

1. If combat is spell vs. spell, the spell with the shorter casting time will be completed first, with the
initiative result breaking ties in casting times.
2. If the spell caster is being attacked by missile weapons, or by natural weaponry without a speed
factor rating (such as a monster’s claw/claw/bite), use the following procedure to determine when the attack strikes.
a. When the attacker wins initiative, the attack will always strike prior to spell completion.
b. When the attacker loses initiative, or when initiative is tied, the attack will occur on the
segment indicated by the caster’s initiative die. Compare this to the spell casting time to
determine which occurs first. Simultaneous results are possible.
3. When the attacker has multiple attack routines, only the first attack has an opportunity to disrupt a spell (unless the spell requires a full round to cast).
4. A magic-user may cast two cantrips in a single round. In such a case, the timing of the first
cantrip is determined as above. The second cantrip will be cast 1-4 segments later.
5. The spell caster cannot use his or her dexterity bonus to avoid being hit during spell casting; doing so interrupts the spell.
6. Any successful attack, or non-saved-against attack, upon the spell caster interrupts the spell.
7. The above procedures for resolving the timing of attacks against spell casters also apply to
opponents using magical devices with specific activation times (such as rods, staves, and wands). These functions, however, will not be automatically disrupted by a successful attack (unless the wielder is slain or otherwise incapacitated).

D. Weapon Speed Factor:Weapon Speed Factor:Weapon Speed Factor:Weapon Speed Factor: When initiative is tied, weapon speed factors are used to determine who strikes the
first blow.

1. The opponent with the weapon which has the lower speed factor will strike first, subject to the following conditions.
a. The initiative roll must be tied.
b. Both combatants must be using melee weapons with speed factors.
c. Both combatants must have an odd or even number of attacks in the round (as per VII A, above).
2. When weapon speed factor is the determinant of which opponent strikes first in a melee round,
there is a chance that one opponent will be entitled to multiple attacks.
a. Compare the score of the lower-factored weapon with that of the higher.
b. If the difference is at least twice the factor of the lower, or five or more factors in any case, the opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to two attacks before the opponent with the higher weapon factor is entitled to any attack whatsoever.
c. If the difference is ten or greater, the opponent with the lower-factored weapon is entitled to two attacks before the opponent with the higher weapon factor is allowed to attack, and one further attack at the same time the opponent with the higher-speed-factored weapon finally is allowed to attack.
3. Note that such speed factor considerations are not applicable when either closing or charging to melee, but after an initial round of combat, or in cases where closing/charging was not necessary, the speed factor considerations are applicable.
 

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This is why, when I played AD&D back in the Reagan years, I always brought a lawyer with me.

"I'm going to pull out my longsword and attack those goblins! And I believe you all know Mr. Cohen?"
For me it was the reverse. The complexity and analysis and research to try to figure out and run AD&D RAW was a great foundation for when I became a lawyer and legal analyst. :)
 

Every group I've played AD&D1e with did it a little differently. One DM of my acquaintance reckoned he'd figured out the RAW and tried to apply it in a large scenario. The players enjoyed making his system give ridiculous results in a different way each round. Don't challenge mathematicians if you aren't one.
 

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