Peregrine's Nest: Who Goes First?

Let’s take a look at initiative systems.

Let's take a look at a few examples of "who goes first" in other games and how you might adapt them to yours.

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.

Initiative: D&D

This is the standard we are all accustomed to. You have an initiative bonus based on (usually) Dexterity and you apply it to a roll to get a result. Highest result goes first, and then the second highest, etc. until everyone has had a go. It’s simple and straight forward and quite dynamic if you reroll each round to get some variety in the order.

Many “old school” systems use this sort of mechanic in one form or another. Some make it a set number for ease, such as making the initiative number always the character's Dexterity rating (or similar) so a high Dexterity character always acts first. It’s less dynamic, but lets you run combat a little quicker with one less dice roll.

Swapping sides: 2D20

The 2D20 system from Modiphius takes a more narrative approach. There is no roll for initiative, instead each side of the conflict acts in turn. Generally someone on the players’ side takes an action, then an NPC on the other side takes an action. When your side gets a turn, only one of you gets to act, but who that is depends on a group decision. Everyone still only gets one action each turn, but the players can order their actions in the most effective way. So they can let their best fighter take the first action on their side in the hopes or taking down one of the opposition early for instance.

Using this system, the players and NPCs are more interwoven in their actions and the players get to plan who is the best person to act first rather than rely on Dexterity or add extra rules like holding actions to achieve the same effect.

Tactical: One Ring

The One Ring system weaves initiative into a tactical system that also defines the character’s ability to hit the target. Once combat occurs, each participant takes a “stance." This effectively represents how hard they are wading into the fight. They might be “forward” where they are toe to toe with their enemy, or take a “defensive” stance and put a little distance between then while still in melee range. There are four stances in total and apart from one (“Rearward”) it doesn’t matter how many people take any given stance.

Once stances are picked, those deeper in into the fight (forward stance) go first. Then attacks are resolved in stance order, until those who have taken more of a step back finally get to act. Again, this system doesn’t rely on Dexterity (except between fighters in the same stance) and focuses more on who is in the thickest part of the fighting.

As a side note, your stance also defines the base target number to hit the target or be hit by the target. It’s easier to score a hit if you are in the thick of things, but also easier to get hit. This means each character needs to make careful judgements about which stance to take each round as the conflict develops.

Action Narrative: Doctor Who

The Doctor Who system (Cubicle 7) relies more on narrative actions to better mirror the behaviour of characters in the series. In this system, the type of action you are attempting is what defines when it happens. The action order here is “Talkers, Runners, Doers, Fighters”. So if you want to talk to the villains, you go first. Next is anyone who wants to run, followed by anyone who wants to do something like picking a lock or grabbing a vital file. Finally, anyone wanting to shoot or hit someone goes last.

This is a good way to encourage talking over shooting as that always happens first, encouraging people to behave more like the Doctor. However this same system can adjust to the type of actions you want to encourage in your game. So in a Conan game fighters might always go first, or even melee attacks go first and ranged attacks go last.

Skill Level: 7th Sea 2 and Shadowrun

In these systems the highest result goes first, but the range is very open ended and also leads to multiple actions. In Shadowrun everyone makes an initiative roll, but those with augmented reflexes get large bonuses that might grant a huge number. The Gamemaster starts a countdown at the highest result and characters act in descending order, just as usual in D&D. But if the character has rolled especially high, once they have taken an action, they reduce their initiative result by a set amount and if the result is not zero they act again on that round. This means wired street samurai might get several actions a round, possibly even two or more before anyone else has had a chance to react.

In recent editions this system also allows hackers and vehicle jocks to take early actions when their minds are running faster in the net. They get initiative bonuses but can only perform actions using the net for their first ones. So when you are trying to figure out how quickly the hacker can get the door open while the fighters hold off the baddies, all the actions can happen as part of the same sequence. This allows you all to use the same system rather than have the GM try to run one game for the fighters and a different parallel game for the hackers.

In 7th Sea (2nd Edition) there is a similar version of this based on their skills. Each player decides what they would like to do in the scene and then makes a roll based on the appropriate skills. Each result yields a number of “Raises” which count as actions. Whoever has the most raises acts first, and players take turns to spend their raises to take actions in the order of who currently has the most.

No Initiative: Pendragon and Cortex

Finally, sometimes you don’t actually need initiative at all. In Pendragon, when opponents engage each other they both make a test at the same time, with the winner being the one to do the damage. Effectively, both opponents make a fighting roll (which is assumed to include their ability to both attack and defend) and only the best result gets to do damage to their opponent. As you are resolving the engagement rather than an action, who goes first is irrelevant. In the case of Pendragon, a lower roll, but a successful one grants the bonus of getting a shield into play for more armour, so losing isn’t a waste. This sort of system resolves combat very swiftly as you resolve two opponents’ actions at the same time. However it can get more complex when there are multiple fighters (although not by much, as Pendragon is such a good system!).

Cortex works with a similar philosophy, but instead of rolling together, opponents are trying to beat each other’s tests. One opponent rolls to act, then the opponent rolls to stop their action. They use the result of the roll as the difficulty to beat. Then their opponent can try to stop their attempt to stop them, making an attempt to roll higher still. This alternates until one side fails to beat the escalating difficulty or gives up. While opponents alternate, initiative isn’t really useful as it is about acting and blocking rather than taking isolated actions.

Take the Initiative​

Given that most initiative systems are based on a common attribute (Dexterity/Speed/Reflexes etc.) or based in a narrative (systemless) structure, most should shift into any system pretty easily. So you might like to try something different in your game. While this gives you a fair few options, there are plenty more out there.

YOU TURN: What are your favourite initiative systems?
 

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Andrew Peregrine

Andrew Peregrine

Ulfgeir

Hero
Shadowrun used to work in 1e and 2e so if you had high enough initiative, then you could do all your actions (up to 4) before anyone else had reacted. That was nerfed in 3e to be first everyone does their first actions in order. Then if anyone had second actions they would be done in order, and the same for third and fourth actions. :)

Afaik, they have not changed it back.
 
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Random aside:

In first edition Seventh Sea, unlike the second, the stat you use for your initiative is ... your Panache.

That's right. I think that's about the most creative way I've seen to make Charisma not a dump stat. Your charisma, your swag, affects how early and often you go in a round.
 

Juxtapozbliss

Adventurer
I think Shadow of the Demon Lord has a pretty cool initiative system. First, each player chooses a fast or slow action as well as enemies. Then fast actions are adjudicate first with players always going first, then slow actions are adjudicated with players always going before enemies. Within the fast bucket and the slow bucket, whichever players are acting can choose amongst themselves who will act first. it adds a nice bit of strategy to the combat.
 

Kannik

Hero
My preference is for the system in FFG's Star Wars: every PC, major NPC, or minion group generates a slot for their side. Then, it's up to the members of a given side to decide who gets a given slot.
While we bounced from FFG's SW ruleset, this is one thing that I really dug from it. Especially if one makes the skill test to determine the slots based on awareness and tactical skill.

I also enjoy Balsera-Style initiative (aka Elective Action Order aka popcorn initiative) for the tactical and story choices it promotes.

As for Cortex Prime, to clarify the situation, as a toolbox there's several ways to do initiative or not depending on the style of campaign you're running and the type of scene you are in. It might be something GM based like PbtA games, it might be Balsera-like, it might be ranked order based on a test. It might also be a Contest or a Challenge (refer here starting on P15 -- side note, the concept of Challenges rocks and works out super well in play).

Phases such as in HERO are interesting, though I've not used something like it in ages. Not sure it'd be in my go-to list these days. (Though I do want to play with phased movement in an old school Car Wars game sometime...)

The Shadowrun initiative with rolls each round and a chance to have multiple actions based on that roll is intriguing!

And also I don't dislike cyclical initiative a la D&D -- different types for different effects and different styles/genres. :)
 

Wrong.
Pendragon does need intiative, since one's ability to pick target is limited by sequence. And it has it in the editions I've run
In KAP 4, page 159, center column, "The gamemaster decides whether the players or their gamemaster-run opponents first make their statements of intent." That's initiative, even if not called such.
Book of Knights (for 4th ed, sometimes called 4.1) has a different intiaitve sequence (p 35, right col):

KAP 5th has the same process in more prosaic presentation on p118... initiatvive is not mentioned in Combat, because it's in the more general rules of play.

Oh, and the cortex plus games I've run? Yeah, they have initiaitive, too. The term used is "Action Order" instead of initiative, but calling a rose a bara (japanese for Rose) changes neither its color, shape, nor thorniness.
In MHRP, it's by assignment... GM picks a PC to go first; at end of their turn, they pick who (from the other side) goes next ("Who Goes first" p. OM 35.)
Oh, and Firefly... p 263: Action Order... which is almost the same, except there's no cost for the GM to have an NPC go first.
And Cortex Prime, p 98. Action Order.

The only games I've run without initiatives to some level have been those in the Burning Wheel family - where you secretly record your 3 actions for the next round, and resolution order is immaterial.
I think that is a pretty harsh appraisal of the article’s statement based on personal interpretation of what ‘Initiative’ means.

In the case of both games, the point is that there is no mechanical use of an initiative system to determine the speed of consequential actions. Unlike other games, you don’t roll dice or make calculations to decide who goes first and there is no mechanical advantage because the entire exchange is determined by a single contested (attack) roll instead. The Winner gets to apply damage and the loser takes it. The next player exchange is then chosen based on GM or player fiat to whatever suits the narrative.

I think this system works well when characters are ‘larger than life’ and need to control a portion of the narrative in the exchange. It doesn’t work as well when the game wants some sort of tactical organisation of combat where time frames are important.

I’d use it for something like Vampire, Call of Cthulhu or superhero games, but it wouldn’t work at all for D&D or Traveller.
 

Juxtapozbliss

Adventurer
I mentioned Popcorn in earlier post, so let me add some additional ones.

"Popcorn" - whomever goes picks who goes next. Everyone (on both sides) needs to go before someone can go again. There's a lot of tactical thoughts to this, from enabling combos but also not doing things like leaving all the foes for last who can then pick themselves first in the next round and effectively all go twice in a row without allowing any PC response. I put "Popcorn" in quotes because the originators of this never called it that and didn't like it, but that's a common name for it on the internet.

Phases and DEX - this is from Hero System, though I first knew it as Champions back in the 80s. All characters have a Speed from 1 to 12, which is how many phases every turn then go. There's a table to look up. Speed 2 would go on phases 6 and 12, speed 3 on phases 4, 8 and 12, etc. Combat started at phase 12, there would be a recovery, then go 1-12, then repeat recovery & 1-12. But within each phase, initiative was based on the character's DEX. So you might have a character with speed 3 and dex 28 and a different one with speed 6 and dex 23 both going on phase 4. While the second character gets twice as many actions per turn, the first character with the higher dex would go before them on the phases they both had.
Yes! I'm running a Champions adventure right now. Latest version, Hero System 6e. My players are getting a kick out of it because it's so different from your typical d20 systems.
 

aramis erak

Legend
There are board games like Dragon and Flagon which put characters on a timeline. Whichever character is earliest on the timeline goes next. Short actions move the character 1 space, medium actions 2 spaces, long actions 3 or more spaces. Characters can act/interrupt off-turn, but it moves them up the timeline so they won't act again immediately.

Are there any TTRPGs that take this approach?
Feng Shui 2.
 

Ulfgeir

Hero
In the homebrewed PbtA-based Wuxia campaign I play in, we have no initiative/popcorn, but on the first round when you enter combat you will choose a potential complication, then do a roll against your Kung Fu attribute, and depending on how well you roll you might partislly/wholly negate the complication. One complication might be that you get separeted from the others and you cannot get help from them.

It is designed so you can have simultaneous separate fights or do popcorn things. You choose which stance you use per round, and that affect how much damage you take from the opponent's automatik counters when you roll for your action (The GM does not roll) . And if you roll badly, the GM will get Moves the opposition can use against you.
 

dbm

Savage!
Supporter
There are card-based initiative systems too. Savage Worlds uses that, and so do games like Aliens and Dragonbane so I am sure lots more people will get exposure to that mechanism.

We really like card systems. If you play the cards face-up it is really easy to see who goes when, and it’s quick to deal every round so the sequence is shaken up rather than being more cyclical like in D&D 5e. Having a different order of play every round radically changes how combat feels for us; you can’t guarantee where you will go in the order next round so you need to factor that uncertainty into your action selection.

Savage Worlds uses the cards to trigger other effects on top of determining order of play. Jokers give a bonus and also generate bennies. Some edges have other effect which trigger based on the card and in some sub-systems pulling a club for your card causes a complication which again makes things more dynamic.

Lots of benefits, no maths needed.
 

innerdude

Legend
My two favorite initiative systems, both already mentioned:

Savage Worlds: Using a standard 52-card deck + Jokers, deal a card to each player + NPC or NPC group. Highest card goes first. Discard all cards at the end of the round and continue dealing from top of the deck.
Special: Jokers are wild, can act first or any other time in turn as player chooses, and gets automatic +2 to all actions taken on a turn when dealt a joker. Gather all active and previously discarded cards at the end of a round where a Joker is dealt, and reshuffle the deck.

Honestly, barring any other considerations, this is my default initiative for EVERYTHING. I'll swap D&D initiative for this every time. It's easier than rolling dice each round, the drama of dealing the cards and anticipation of getting a Joker is awesome.

However, I've found that I like my next one as a close second:

Star Wars Edge of the Empire / Age of Rebellion / Force and Destiny: Roll an appropriate attribute check (Vigilance or Cool) using rules as outlined. After determining overall Success + Advantage for each roll (PC + NPC), slot each "side" of the encounter. From that time forward, each side's "slots" can be consumed by ANY character on that side, even if they weren't the character that rolled for that slot.

This allows for very fun tactics/strategy round to round for the players. If there's any drawback, it's that such an approach favors the players --- they nearly always have more overall slots, and their slot positions are usually higher. But that's not necessarily a bad thing. It allows for dynamic initiative per side without re-rolling every round.
 
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