Peregrine's Nest: Who Goes First?

Let’s take a look at initiative systems.

Let's take a look at a few examples of "who goes first" in other games and how you might adapt them to yours.

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Picture courtesy of Pixabay.

Initiative: D&D

This is the standard we are all accustomed to. You have an initiative bonus based on (usually) Dexterity and you apply it to a roll to get a result. Highest result goes first, and then the second highest, etc. until everyone has had a go. It’s simple and straight forward and quite dynamic if you reroll each round to get some variety in the order.

Many “old school” systems use this sort of mechanic in one form or another. Some make it a set number for ease, such as making the initiative number always the character's Dexterity rating (or similar) so a high Dexterity character always acts first. It’s less dynamic, but lets you run combat a little quicker with one less dice roll.

Swapping sides: 2D20

The 2D20 system from Modiphius takes a more narrative approach. There is no roll for initiative, instead each side of the conflict acts in turn. Generally someone on the players’ side takes an action, then an NPC on the other side takes an action. When your side gets a turn, only one of you gets to act, but who that is depends on a group decision. Everyone still only gets one action each turn, but the players can order their actions in the most effective way. So they can let their best fighter take the first action on their side in the hopes or taking down one of the opposition early for instance.

Using this system, the players and NPCs are more interwoven in their actions and the players get to plan who is the best person to act first rather than rely on Dexterity or add extra rules like holding actions to achieve the same effect.

Tactical: One Ring

The One Ring system weaves initiative into a tactical system that also defines the character’s ability to hit the target. Once combat occurs, each participant takes a “stance." This effectively represents how hard they are wading into the fight. They might be “forward” where they are toe to toe with their enemy, or take a “defensive” stance and put a little distance between then while still in melee range. There are four stances in total and apart from one (“Rearward”) it doesn’t matter how many people take any given stance.

Once stances are picked, those deeper in into the fight (forward stance) go first. Then attacks are resolved in stance order, until those who have taken more of a step back finally get to act. Again, this system doesn’t rely on Dexterity (except between fighters in the same stance) and focuses more on who is in the thickest part of the fighting.

As a side note, your stance also defines the base target number to hit the target or be hit by the target. It’s easier to score a hit if you are in the thick of things, but also easier to get hit. This means each character needs to make careful judgements about which stance to take each round as the conflict develops.

Action Narrative: Doctor Who

The Doctor Who system (Cubicle 7) relies more on narrative actions to better mirror the behaviour of characters in the series. In this system, the type of action you are attempting is what defines when it happens. The action order here is “Talkers, Runners, Doers, Fighters”. So if you want to talk to the villains, you go first. Next is anyone who wants to run, followed by anyone who wants to do something like picking a lock or grabbing a vital file. Finally, anyone wanting to shoot or hit someone goes last.

This is a good way to encourage talking over shooting as that always happens first, encouraging people to behave more like the Doctor. However this same system can adjust to the type of actions you want to encourage in your game. So in a Conan game fighters might always go first, or even melee attacks go first and ranged attacks go last.

Skill Level: 7th Sea 2 and Shadowrun

In these systems the highest result goes first, but the range is very open ended and also leads to multiple actions. In Shadowrun everyone makes an initiative roll, but those with augmented reflexes get large bonuses that might grant a huge number. The Gamemaster starts a countdown at the highest result and characters act in descending order, just as usual in D&D. But if the character has rolled especially high, once they have taken an action, they reduce their initiative result by a set amount and if the result is not zero they act again on that round. This means wired street samurai might get several actions a round, possibly even two or more before anyone else has had a chance to react.

In recent editions this system also allows hackers and vehicle jocks to take early actions when their minds are running faster in the net. They get initiative bonuses but can only perform actions using the net for their first ones. So when you are trying to figure out how quickly the hacker can get the door open while the fighters hold off the baddies, all the actions can happen as part of the same sequence. This allows you all to use the same system rather than have the GM try to run one game for the fighters and a different parallel game for the hackers.

In 7th Sea (2nd Edition) there is a similar version of this based on their skills. Each player decides what they would like to do in the scene and then makes a roll based on the appropriate skills. Each result yields a number of “Raises” which count as actions. Whoever has the most raises acts first, and players take turns to spend their raises to take actions in the order of who currently has the most.

No Initiative: Pendragon and Cortex

Finally, sometimes you don’t actually need initiative at all. In Pendragon, when opponents engage each other they both make a test at the same time, with the winner being the one to do the damage. Effectively, both opponents make a fighting roll (which is assumed to include their ability to both attack and defend) and only the best result gets to do damage to their opponent. As you are resolving the engagement rather than an action, who goes first is irrelevant. In the case of Pendragon, a lower roll, but a successful one grants the bonus of getting a shield into play for more armour, so losing isn’t a waste. This sort of system resolves combat very swiftly as you resolve two opponents’ actions at the same time. However it can get more complex when there are multiple fighters (although not by much, as Pendragon is such a good system!).

Cortex works with a similar philosophy, but instead of rolling together, opponents are trying to beat each other’s tests. One opponent rolls to act, then the opponent rolls to stop their action. They use the result of the roll as the difficulty to beat. Then their opponent can try to stop their attempt to stop them, making an attempt to roll higher still. This alternates until one side fails to beat the escalating difficulty or gives up. While opponents alternate, initiative isn’t really useful as it is about acting and blocking rather than taking isolated actions.

Take the Initiative​

Given that most initiative systems are based on a common attribute (Dexterity/Speed/Reflexes etc.) or based in a narrative (systemless) structure, most should shift into any system pretty easily. So you might like to try something different in your game. While this gives you a fair few options, there are plenty more out there.

YOU TURN: What are your favourite initiative systems?
 

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Andrew Peregrine

Andrew Peregrine

GMMichael

Guide of Modos
I like a priority-of-actions initiative. The roll doesn't determine when you go, so much as whose actions are slower than yours. Basically, you act when you want, and the initiative determines when /if someone acts right before you. It doesn't work so well for games in which you do one main thing each round, but it's great for rounds with multiple activities. It replaces "well now I'm bored for 5 turns" with "I chose to use all my actions, let's hope it pays off." E.g. Modos RPG.

What about Powered by the Apocalypse? Doesn't that also use No Initiative? I thought I read that actions happen then the GM/PCs decide that the narrative calls for a roll.
 

aramis erak

Legend

No Initiative: Pendragon and Cortex

Wrong.
Pendragon does need intiative, since one's ability to pick target is limited by sequence. And it has it in the editions I've run
In KAP 4, page 159, center column, "The gamemaster decides whether the players or their gamemaster-run opponents first make their statements of intent." That's initiative, even if not called such.
Book of Knights (for 4th ed, sometimes called 4.1) has a different intiaitve sequence (p 35, right col):
Initiative
Turns and Opposed Resolutions are taken in Initiative order. Initiative is determined in the following manner:
  • Movement Rating, with the highest rating going first. If tied,
  • Highest DEX goes first. If they are still tied,
  • Roll dice, highest moves first, then in order. Reroll ties.
KAP 5th has the same process in more prosaic presentation on p118... initiatvive is not mentioned in Combat, because it's in the more general rules of play.

Oh, and the cortex plus games I've run? Yeah, they have initiaitive, too. The term used is "Action Order" instead of initiative, but calling a rose a bara (japanese for Rose) changes neither its color, shape, nor thorniness.
In MHRP, it's by assignment... GM picks a PC to go first; at end of their turn, they pick who (from the other side) goes next ("Who Goes first" p. OM 35.)
Oh, and Firefly... p 263: Action Order... which is almost the same, except there's no cost for the GM to have an NPC go first.
And Cortex Prime, p 98. Action Order.

The only games I've run without initiatives to some level have been those in the Burning Wheel family - where you secretly record your 3 actions for the next round, and resolution order is immaterial.
 
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aramis erak

Legend
My preference is for the system in FFG's Star Wars: every PC, major NPC, or minion group generates a slot for their side. Then, it's up to the members of a given side to decide who gets a given slot.
 

Theory of Games

Storied Gamist
Simultaneous combat works best IMO: run all ranged attacks, and when the melee combatants reach each other, run all those.

The whole turn-based thing emerged from tabletop wargaming, meaning it is both archaic and nonsensical. Combat can have the appearance of chaos.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
One important thing to consider is when Initiative systems are also load-bearing for other parts of the system.

Take for example the cyclic initiative of D&D 5e. As part of the streamlining of the system, it's also used as a critical part of the widespread duration system. Something that last until "the [start/end] of your next turn" is really shorthand for "this will last for exactly one action of everyone on the field". Moving away from a cyclic system plays havoc with that. Imagine playing a Monk who manages to use Stunning Strike on an opponent, but because you roll better and go sooner in the following round they don't end up losing an action.

Or there are some systems with "Popcorn" initiative where you choose who goes next, and that's important for the way teamwork or combos are implemented in the system.

Initiative systems may be completely stand-alone, but often can be mechanically important or thematically important, so thought needs to be given before swapping them out for other ones.
 

Blue

Ravenous Bugblatter Beast of Traal
I mentioned Popcorn in earlier post, so let me add some additional ones.

"Popcorn" - whomever goes picks who goes next. Everyone (on both sides) needs to go before someone can go again. There's a lot of tactical thoughts to this, from enabling combos but also not doing things like leaving all the foes for last who can then pick themselves first in the next round and effectively all go twice in a row without allowing any PC response. I put "Popcorn" in quotes because the originators of this never called it that and didn't like it, but that's a common name for it on the internet.

Phases and DEX - this is from Hero System, though I first knew it as Champions back in the 80s. All characters have a Speed from 1 to 12, which is how many phases every turn then go. There's a table to look up. Speed 2 would go on phases 6 and 12, speed 3 on phases 4, 8 and 12, etc. Combat started at phase 12, there would be a recovery, then go 1-12, then repeat recovery & 1-12. But within each phase, initiative was based on the character's DEX. So you might have a character with speed 3 and dex 28 and a different one with speed 6 and dex 23 both going on phase 4. While the second character gets twice as many actions per turn, the first character with the higher dex would go before them on the phases they both had.
 

Von Ether

Legend
I appreciate the Cypher System which is a bit tactical and narrative. Those who succeed over the monster's difficulty are now a team who can discuss who goes in what order, then the monster goes, then the remaining PC are team B and can discuss how they will attack.
 

Desco911

Villager
There are board games like Dragon and Flagon which put characters on a timeline. Whichever character is earliest on the timeline goes next. Short actions move the character 1 space, medium actions 2 spaces, long actions 3 or more spaces. Characters can act/interrupt off-turn, but it moves them up the timeline so they won't act again immediately.

Are there any TTRPGs that take this approach?
 

Distracted DM

Distracted DM
Supporter
What about Powered by the Apocalypse? Doesn't that also use No Initiative? I thought I read that actions happen then the GM/PCs decide that the narrative calls for a roll.
Yeah, generally speaking the GM threatens the characters with an action "the vampire is gonna grab your throat" and it's up to the players to actually do something, technically (iirc) nothing will happen until a player does something. what happens is all a result of the players' rolls.

"The ogre is going to bash Alice over the head, what're y'all gonna do?"
"I'll (use X feature or try to dip under his legs). Crap I rolled a 5."
"Ok, you try to duck under his legs but trip and fall, take X damage, now Graham is on the ground in perfect ogre-stomp position. What do you do?"
Etc etc etc
 

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