D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

That subject line is a little incendiary, but anway.

Last night the PCs (5 4th level 5E2024 characters) went into a young black dragon's lair to kill it. The dragon also had an allied abomination (using the stats for a half dragon in the MM). This was, per the A5E chart (which has been pretty accurate, even for 2024 rules) a Deadly encounter. And it mighthave been if not a for a few failed saves.

Just a reminder: a young dragon is not a legendary creature, has no legendary actions, and has no lair actions.

As soons as the PCs enter, the wizard casts suggestion on the half dragon and compels it to just up and leave. It fails. it leaves. Suggestion is RIDICULOUS.

The dragon swoops down on the monk, breaths, and drops the monk instantly (dying not dead). So it looks like there might be an actual fight to be had, even with the solo young dragon. Then the bard gets going with Dissonate Whispers (which triggers opportunity attacks). The dragon does not recharge its breath and unloads on the bard. Unfortunately, the dice were not with me at all.

Ultimately, hideous laughter completely did the dragon in.

What an underwhelming experience.

Note: I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the rules, or with luck having so much weight in the fight. I am just complaining that it turned into a comedy of errors rather than anything fun and tense. And I am still aghast at suggestion.

Anyway: how do you feel about save or suck spells in D&D 2024? Anything interesting, fun or frustrating to share?

Uggg as a DM your hands are tied by these spells. The best tactical option for the enemies may be to cast suggestion and take a PC out of the fight, but no one wants to make a player sit for an hour and do nothing.

Reynard said:

That subject line is a little incendiary, but anway.

Last night the PCs (5 4th level 5E2024 characters) went into a young black dragon's lair to kill it. The dragon also had an allied abomination (using the stats for a half dragon in the MM). This was, per the A5E chart (which has been pretty accurate, even for 2024 rules) a Deadly encounter. And it mighthave been if not a for a few failed saves.

Just a reminder: a young dragon is not a legendary creature, has no legendary actions, and has no lair actions.

As soons as the PCs enter, the wizard casts suggestion on the half dragon and compels it to just up and leave. It fails. it leaves. Suggestion is RIDICULOUS.

The dragon swoops down on the monk, breaths, and drops the monk instantly (dying not dead). So it looks like there might be an actual fight to be had, even with the solo young dragon. Then the bard gets going with Dissonate Whispers (which triggers opportunity attacks). The dragon does not recharge its breath and unloads on the bard. Unfortunately, the dice were not with me at all.

Ultimately, hideous laughter completely did the dragon in.

What an underwhelming experience.

Note: I am not saying that there is anything wrong with the rules, or with luck having so much weight in the fight. I am just complaining that it turned into a comedy of errors rather than anything fun and tense. And I am still aghast at suggestion.

Anyway: how do you feel about save or suck spells in D&D 2024? Anything interesting, fun or frustrating to share?

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Suggestion was reverted to 2014 by group consens.
Tasha has a save every round as it should have.

The problem spell was suggestion here.

My suggestion: all spells need to have a save every turn.
There might be a few exceptions:
Some spells might have a 3 step resolution: fail 3 saves for sticking full effect.
New sleep is a nice spell: first save for incapacitation, second spell for full sleep. And you can wake people up.

Other than that, no. No save and suck for 24 hours.

sevenbastard said:

Uggg as a DM your hands are tied by these spells.

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No. You are the DM. Talk it through with your players. Tell them the spell sucks and you won't play it that way or you need to do what you suggest: use it as a DM. And just always add extra enemies, specifically with those spells prepared...

sevenbastard said:

The best tactical option for the enemies may be to cast suggestion and take a PC out of the fight, but no one wants to make a player sit for an hour and do nothing.

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No one wants an arms race either. So the option is making fair use rules for such spells.

Our last D&D session went like this (I wasn't the DM). We had found ourself mired in Shadow Fey (Kobold Press's Midgard setting) politics and were kind of at an impasse, as none of us were A) Shadow Fey or B) Charisma-based characters. Only some quick thinking and my recently watching The Apothecary Diaries had gotten us any headway.

One of the big baddies, the so-called Demon Lord of Roaches, decided to try and recruit us. We met him at his clandestine meeting spot, and, at the behest of another faction, tried to merk him. He was very powerful, but lacked any minions. He opened up with a Legendary Action insect plague and had an off-turn teleport. I upcast dispel magic on the plague and the instant he used up all his Legendary Resistances to avoid the Monk's Stunning Fist, I landed a hold monster on him thanks to my Wand of Binding. The end.

Our reward was an audience with the Fey Prince, who challenged us to test our might to see if we were even worthy of his aid. He, his pet Shadow Hound, and his sister, the "Witch of Grey Mourning" (or something equally pretentious) faced off against our party (reduced to three thanks to a missing player).

The Monk won initiative and, thanks to their ridiculous movement speed (Mobility Feat) crossed the battlefield to the Witch and Stunned her. I dropped my new level 5 spell on the Black Prince and his mutt- synaptic static. The DM was obviously annoyed at the Int saves (none of which he ever made) and thanks to the -1d6 on all attack rolls, didn't land a single hit. He was even more annoyed when I revealed that SS doesn't require concentration when I then hit all three of the enemies with slow. We got hit with an 8d10 frost breath from the hound and one attack from the Prince (his Multiattack ruined by slow) and that was it. The hound never recharged, their reactions were turned off, and the Witch only got one spell off- misty step, thanks to slow's 50% chance for a spell to be delayed til the next turn clause (and then getting polymorphed before her next turn came up).

While it was a great win for us against enemies who had a good chance of murdering us, the fact that our victory was more due to failed saving throws in both combats than our tactics (the Cleric didn't do anything but spirit guardians + healing himself, and the Monk kept putting himself in the exact spot I wanted to drop area spells on since he went before me in the initiative order, and we had no way to strategize without tipping off our foes). And if the DM had had a bit more luck with his die rolls, it would have been a whole different session!

Ultimately, I have two conclusions. 1- I won't be playing any more Wizards after this campaign. And 2- the saving throw mechanic needs to be taken out back and put out of it's misery. I really don't think encounters should hinge on a single die roll the way they often due with spells.

I'd have preferred more things like 5e's sleep, which requires foes to be at a certain hit point threshold to land, which synergizes with the party's damage. But instead, lol, 2024 went in the opposite direction, making sleep a saving throw based effect (probably because it didn't interact with Magic Resistance or Legendary Saves at all- you were either immune to the spell or it could just end a fight quickly).

And I've been on the other side of this thing! How often do you have to pray for your monsters to save against a Monk's Stunning Fist or for the Cleric to fail his concentration on spirit guardians in order to actually have a proper encounter? I want to root for my players instead of the opposite, but too often, them getting lucky just leads to "well, we can go through the motions, but this fight is basically over".

Spellcasting enemies somehow are even more of a joke than they were in past editions- even though they often have spellcasting ability equal to their CR +2, they might get one spell off before they get burst down by hit point damage, which makes most of their kit pretty much moot. And that's even assuming your players aren't willing to engage in a counterspell war (I don't even know the spell, just because I was in an AL game where three party members had it)!

Reynard said:

Anyway: how do you feel about save or suck spells in D&D 2024? Anything interesting, fun or frustrating to share?

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While I don't play 2024 rules, I'll briefly chime in on save or suck spells in general: I love them!

BUT... (huge BUT! )

The effects need to be tempered with the spell level (or tier really) and DM adjucation.

2nd-level suggestion just making the ally walk away? No. It is too powerful for a 2nd-level spell IMO and has been an issue on boards before.

Another issue is the new wording in 2024. In 2014, the DM decided if the request was "reasonable". Having the half dragon leaving its ally/master in a time of need is NOT reasonable. But, in 2024, the wording actually specifies "Stop fighting, leave this library peacefully, and don't return" as an example! This sort of puts DMs in a bad situation because now the very example of what the spell can do compels the DM to allow it. It is another case where the text in the rules is trying to tie the hands of the DM.

Reynard said:

The dragon swoops down on the monk, breaths, and drops the monk instantly (dying not dead). So it looks like there might be an actual fight to be had, even with the solo young dragon.

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Nothing against this obviously, but why did the black dragon breath just hit one PC? Just curious about the encounter layt out.

Reynard said:

Then the bard gets going with Dissonate Whispers (which triggers opportunity attacks).

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Does it trigger OA in 2024? I thought forced movment trigger them?

Reynard said:

Ultimately, hideous laughter completely did the dragon in.

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Wow. It never made any save triggered by the damage it was taking?

Finally, another issue with save or suck spells is creatures (particularly) not having saving throw proficiencies sometimes.

Ultimately, any saving throw spell or effect can cause issues. When I was playing a 5E game a few years back the DM pulled particularly nasty combos with a Beholder. Two PCs died in two rounds. Even with random rolling for the eyes, one PC failed vs. Petrification twice (rounds 1 and 2)--turning to stone, and then was auto-Disintegrated (that same round). The other PC was Paralyzed next round (3), and then (in the same ROUND) double whammied with auto-failing Death Ray and Disintegrated for over 100 damage. We eventually won, but two PCs reduced to dust made it a hollow victory indeed. It was a series of lucky eye rolls by the DM and targeting PCs with weaker saves. But hey, its a fragging beholder and meant to kick ass, so none of really complained about it.

But, after that the DM decided to randomly order the eyes and require all 10 be used before any could be repeated in future games.

Maybe take a look at this thread:

Or, for comparison, look at a power from Modos 2 (edited):

Fear 1
Maintainable: yes
Effect: if the target is in a non-defensive posture, it can use actions only for defense against this power, to move to defensive posture, or to flee conflict. In defensive posture, the target may act normally.
Half effect: no effect.

Loosely translated, this power makes an opponent back off to somewhere safe(r), where their (oh, let's say) allied abomination claws do less damage. A successful defense (the half effect) ends the spell. The abomination has the option of "flee conflict," and that might lead to a cooler encounter. The fear also ends if the caster doesn't spend some effort maintaining it, so keeping the abomination away isn't just a freebie after casting.

Flights of Fancy said:

2nd-level suggestion just making the ally walk away? No. It is too powerful for a 2nd-level spell IMO and has been an issue on boards before.

Another issue is the new wording in 2024. In 2014, the DM decided if the request was "reasonable". Having the half dragon leaving its ally/master in a time of need is NOT reasonable. But, in 2024, the wording actually specifies "Stop fighting, leave this library peacefully, and don't return" as an example! This sort of puts DMs in a bad situation because now the very example of what the spell can do compels the DM to allow it. It is another case where the text in the rules is trying to tie the hands of the DM.

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I mean, when the player literally uses the example in the book, there is not much to be done. Suggestion is way overpowered for its level.

Flights of Fancy said:

Nothing against this obviously, but why did the black dragon breath just hit one PC? Just curious about the encounter layt out.

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The line is only 30 feet for the young dragon and combinations of position and movement speeds meant it was getting the monk or no one on round 1.

Flights of Fancy said:

Does it trigger OA in 2024? I thought forced movment trigger them?

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I think that only applies to push or pull, not movement the creature is compelled to take.

Flights of Fancy said:

Wow. It never made any save triggered by the damage it was taking?

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Sadly, nope. My dice were cold as ice.

Reynard said:

I mean, when the player literally uses the example in the book, there is not much to be done. Suggestion is way overpowered for its level.

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Right, but again that is the wording in 2024. The 2014 version is much more reasonable and the DM can veto such a use (sorry, his loyalty to his master is too strong for such a feeble spell...).

Reynard said:

The line is only 30 feet for the young dragon and combinations of position and movement speeds meant it was getting the monk or no one on round 1.

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No issue, just curious. I know most times you might get two or even three PCs with it.

My DM does line breaths in an interesting way, also, which makes it work better since cones can easily get multiple targets. Unless we are really spread out, he gets at least two of us all the time lol!

Reynard said:

I think that only applies to push or pull, not movement the creature is compelled to take.

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I don't know. My DM would probably just say no OA from it since it was forced--how it was forced doesn't matter to him.

Reynard said:

Sadly, nope. My dice were cold as ice.

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It happens. shrug

Reynard said:

Sadly, nope. My dice were cold as ice.

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I will say no mechanic will save you from bad dice at the end of the day. I mean if the dragon hadn't been stalled out by a spell but whiffed on every attack due to cold dice, it still would have been a lackluster experience.

I will say I am not a fan of young dragons. I mean I'm not a huge fan of dragon design in general, but young dragons tend to be in that worse spot. High enough CR that they start to look like boss monsters....but without the legendary oomph that backs that up.