D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

I am just complaining that it turned into a comedy of errors rather than anything fun and tense. And I am still aghast at suggestion.

There's an interesting design methodology worth exploring here. D&D is a game that blends narrative and gameplay. You can roll a 1 on a death save, you can get hit with a bunch of crits, you can whiff for a whole night, you can fall off a cliff and die, you can get mind controlled or stunlocked...and these are all gameplay elements. They're not hugely narratively satisfying, because they are part of the random luck of the game side of D&D. They can absolutely suck the air out of the room.

And many of these game elements have survived the march of editions. We've played with getting them out because of their lack of satisfying storytelling, but on the whole, the design values the randomness and the die rolls and the lack of narrative determinism in D&D.

Which means that, to some degree, we're OK with situations like this. A good spell selection and a lucky roll and the right encounter setup (this would've gone very differently if the target was immune to Charm or if the dragon would've concentrated damage on the Suggestion-caster or if there were just more monsters involved) means the big encounter goes very well for the party. Congrats! Maybe the next encounter goes poorly.

In that gameplay environment, it's hard to be precious about "tense" moments. There's no guarantee that any one moment is going to be particularly tense. Dice and good strategy deflate tension. PC's are not story protagonists, D&D is very much still a game, and it's possible to "win" without much effort some times. Folks get lucky.

But, the gameplay environment does not NEED to be this way. We can prioritize narrative more. We can change D&D to prioritize narrative more, with a tweak here or there. There's mechanics out there that really help increase "tension." Getting rid of save-or-suck is one element, but it's by far not the only one.

All of which is just to say that save-or-suck is not exactly the problem here. The problem is that sometimes the GAME of D&D and the STORY of a D&D session are in conflict. Save-or-suck is just one way that can be true.

Anyway: how do you feel about save or suck spells in D&D 2024? Anything interesting, fun or frustrating to share?

As someone who very much values the Game side of D&D, I'm fond of them, and I think overall 5e has the best design of them. Not perfect, but definitely better than any edition previous. Suggestion isn't a perfect spell. Even with a lucky roll in an ideal situations (which it sounds like this was), Suggestion is a Concentration spell, which means beating the tar out of the spellcaster is a perfectly cromulent solution for a strategically minded antagonist. That can be a very tense situation, turning the encounter into a bit of a chase, challenging the group to work as a party, etc. If they win, it's because they played smart and got lucky. It also creates ripple effects in the campaign, as the antagonist is still around, and can come back for a round of vengeance.

2024 even did a bit of nerfing for many control spells. Sleep, iconic 1st level encounter-ender, is now only single-target, for instance. Not sure how I feel about that, personally...

I won't dispute the idea that save-or-suck spells are possible encounter-deflators. They absolutely are. But just as I'm OK with the party sometimes getting stomped because of how the dice land and their decisions in the moment, I'm also OK with the party sometimes doing the stomping for the same reasons. One encounter not being as tense as I'd hoped isn't a problem for me, generally. If I really want an encounter to be a barn-burner, I make sure that as a DM I plan for save-or-suck. Legendary resistance, multiple monsters, a clear counter-strategy, etc. It's worth having these effects in the game, for me, so I'm happy to take them into account, just as I'd take into account crit chances, grindy fights against many monsters, the chance of rolling 1's, etc.
 
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I don't like all or nothing stuff. IMO action economy needs more of a gradient.

I.e.
Everyone has ~5 actions, bosses can have more.
Getting stunned means you lose 1-4 actions
Stunned doesn't stack, just take the highest.

Or maybe.
Suggestions only works against creatures with less than 10 * the spell level of current hit points (maybe 10 + a roll vs Wis or whatever). Beat someone up first before you dominate them.
 

I find that the players love these kinds of spells. If you really find it a problem, then talk it out with the players and agree not to use them. As a DM I do not see my job to kill pcs it is to make them feel threatened (even if the threat level is actually quite low). If you really want fragile PCs then I recommend switching to a system where the PCs are more fragile.
 

I will say no mechanic will save you from bad dice at the end of the day.
Rule zero can save you from bad dice.

I mean if the dragon hadn't been stalled out by a spell but whiffed on every attack due to cold dice, it still would have been a lackluster experience.
I wonder if the player-characters would say the same thing.

"Remember when we stomped that dragon that kept tripping over itself?"
 

I find that the players love these kinds of spells. If you really find it a problem, then talk it out with the players and agree not to use them. As a DM I do not see my job to kill pcs it is to make them feel threatened (even if the threat level is actually quite low). If you really want fragile PCs then I recommend switching to a system where the PCs are more fragile.
Well, my complaint was not that I did not get to kill a bunch of PCs.
 


I don't like all or nothing stuff. IMO action economy needs more of a gradient.

I.e.
Everyone has ~5 actions, bosses can have more.
Getting stunned means you lose 1-4 actions
Stunned doesn't stack, just take the highest.
5 actions! I think thats a bit much, but I did really like the 3 actions of PF2 (even if I dont like PF2 overall).
Or maybe.
Suggestions only works against creatures with less than 10 * the spell level of current hit points (maybe 10 + a roll vs Wis or whatever). Beat someone up first before you dominate them.
I think there was a lot of room to work with "bloodied". Spell does X if the target isnt bloodied, spell does Y if it is. One thing I wish they took from 4th and expanded on. I think this would let folks have save or suck and eat their cake too...does that sound right? I mean, you have to have at least a little bit of a fight before it goes nuke.
 


5 actions! I think thats a bit much, but I did really like the 3 actions of PF2 (even if I dont like PF2 overall).
Well different moves would cost different amounts. Casting a spell could cost 3.

Point is that there's should be more middle ground. A way to be slowed without being stopped. Also don't allow stacking control.

It could be done better in 5e if things have more bonus actions. Then "take an action or bonus action, but not both" is a bit if a middle ground.


And I agree PF2 is too fiddly and rule heavy. But I do like the action system better.
 

I find that the players love these kinds of spells. If you really find it a problem, then talk it out with the players and agree not to use them. As a DM I do not see my job to kill pcs it is to make them feel threatened (even if the threat level is actually quite low). If you really want fragile PCs then I recommend switching to a system where the PCs are more fragile.
Agree that this sounds like what players are looking for in 5e. Really it is perhaps a problem with the fact that people want lots of abilities and detailed combats but d&d has to be conservative. Saves work well for many styles, but precise, tactical games aren't one of those. Lots of 5e players like the tactics aspect of the game but the game can't change too much for them because it is D&D.

Some games without the baggage like the MCDM one, DC20, I think could improve in this regard. But I haven't followed them closely as it's not the right style for me rn.
 

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