Micah Sweet
Level Up & OSR Enthusiast
Easier to hit for other people.
D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)
- Thread starter Reynard
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Scribe
Legend
Logic it out as you don't get advantage because you may hit your buddy doing the grappling.
touc
No rule is inviolate
Then it gets to die as easily as any other mook. If you intend for a bad guy to be a "boss" battle that lasts more than 2 rounds, then the boss needs stages and defenses, such as (1) ways to shed duration spell effects, (2) regain hit points, (3) change the battlefield environment and boost itself.
I don't like the language either but I wouldn't have ruled it leaves. First, "sounds achievable" vs. "reasonable" is huge, but it basically must avoid even 1% risk of harm. Second, the example (leave the library) is situational. There might be harm involved with leaving the library forever (e.g. target is there to find a cure to its rare disease, so leaving now would be harmful), and there's certainly harm as below.
Charmed doesn't protect the rest of the party, only the caster. So, from the perspective of this dragon, I might rule that while the magic suggests I'd feel comfortable leaving my home in the care of my buddy for a bit, I think it'd be totally harmful if I turned my back on these other hooligans that I don't know who have weapons and armor and magic and look like thieves. Suggestion doesn't allow you to tag on additional buddies or dictate they also are safe and best pals.
They've been a part of the game forever. Throw in more low-level mooks, give bosses ways to shed effects. If you really don't like them, I'm trying a new mechanic in my next campaign: anti stunlock, advantage on new save if you've failed an effect that disabled your ability to take actions. Doesn't affect ongoing effect saves, just new attempts to reapply the spell.
Zardnaar
Legend
Well last week I used a refluffed death knight as an avatar of Myrkul vs 10th level PCs (CR 17).
With a +7 iirc wisdom save, 3 legendary saves and magic resistance it lasted 3 rounds iirc. Actually got some damage in.
1 more round would have been perfect imho. Maybe extra 75hp and a 4th or 5th legendary save.
I had CR8 assassins get easily held and 7 bhaalists essentially got cake walked.
It's weak mental saves leave monsters very vulnerable to evel 1 spells.
With a +7 iirc wisdom save, 3 legendary saves and magic resistance it lasted 3 rounds iirc. Actually got some damage in.
1 more round would have been perfect imho. Maybe extra 75hp and a 4th or 5th legendary save.
I had CR8 assassins get easily held and 7 bhaalists essentially got cake walked.
It's weak mental saves leave monsters very vulnerable to evel 1 spells.
I'm not caught up on the whole thread and someone else might have mentioned it, but I'm now a huge fan of Doom Points from Tales of the Valiant. Doom points and luck have changed all of my 5e games for the better. As a disclaimer, after doing a video and article about them, Kobold Press commissioned me to write about them in the upcoming Monster Vault 2.
The way I use them, doom points replace legendary resistance. Bosses might have between like two and five of them. A doom point can be used just like legendary resistance except they can also use it for other things. They can rip through a force cage or punch through a wall of force. They can cause their breath weapon to penetrate immunity or resistances. They can take an extra action. They can recharge abilities. They can get advantage on all their attacks. They can destroy one of their minions and get a pile of temporary hit points.
The only limitation on doom points (in my games) is that there are only so many of them and the players know I have them. They know that, no matter what BS I pull off, I can only do it two to five times.
Obviously I don't use doom points all the time. I also warn players if their save or suck spell is likely to get subverted with a doom point so they don't waste it. Often they do it anyway in the hope of burning a doom point.
Doom points help me, as a GM, ensure a powerful monster meets its in-world expectation and fiction. It isn't a way for me to punish players. My goal is to steer those save or suck abilities to powerful minions where taking them out with something like a suggestion is fine, sometimes even necessary.
But boss monsters in D&D need help. They have for as long as I can remember. Doom points help.
I've used them in three different 5e games now with about 18ish players and though they grumble sometimes when I use them, all of them said they like them when I talked to them afterwards. They all saw them as an interesting dynamic effect that keeps the battle interesting.
More here:
slyflourish.com
Note, I call them "dreadful blessings" in my own game and usually tie them to a BBEG. Last night one of the bosses had "Blessings of Lolth". In my City of Arches game they're "Blessings of the Nameless King". In my Dragon empire game they're "Blessings of Ibbalan" (the big boss dragon the characters face). This gives them a sort of otherworldly in-fiction feel that I like.
The way I use them, doom points replace legendary resistance. Bosses might have between like two and five of them. A doom point can be used just like legendary resistance except they can also use it for other things. They can rip through a force cage or punch through a wall of force. They can cause their breath weapon to penetrate immunity or resistances. They can take an extra action. They can recharge abilities. They can get advantage on all their attacks. They can destroy one of their minions and get a pile of temporary hit points.
The only limitation on doom points (in my games) is that there are only so many of them and the players know I have them. They know that, no matter what BS I pull off, I can only do it two to five times.
Obviously I don't use doom points all the time. I also warn players if their save or suck spell is likely to get subverted with a doom point so they don't waste it. Often they do it anyway in the hope of burning a doom point.
Doom points help me, as a GM, ensure a powerful monster meets its in-world expectation and fiction. It isn't a way for me to punish players. My goal is to steer those save or suck abilities to powerful minions where taking them out with something like a suggestion is fine, sometimes even necessary.
But boss monsters in D&D need help. They have for as long as I can remember. Doom points help.
I've used them in three different 5e games now with about 18ish players and though they grumble sometimes when I use them, all of them said they like them when I talked to them afterwards. They all saw them as an interesting dynamic effect that keeps the battle interesting.
More here:
Dreadful Blessings – A Mechanic to Protect 5e Boss Monsters
Bosses need help. Bosses often face the full wrath of the characters, just for being a boss. This focus often leads to anticlimactic fights in which the boss is ineffective at fulfilling the role it h...
slyflourish.com
Note, I call them "dreadful blessings" in my own game and usually tie them to a BBEG. Last night one of the bosses had "Blessings of Lolth". In my City of Arches game they're "Blessings of the Nameless King". In my Dragon empire game they're "Blessings of Ibbalan" (the big boss dragon the characters face). This gives them a sort of otherworldly in-fiction feel that I like.
The only problem I see with stuff like this is that it just adds another ablative shield the PCs have to exhaust. So instead of just thinking about draining hit points, the players have to also think about forcing auto saves (similar to legendary resistance). This can grind the game to a halt as the players try to choose the right effect that the GM will choose to autosave on.I'm not caught up on the whole thread and someone else might have mentioned it, but I'm now a huge fan of Doom Points from Tales of the Valiant. Doom points and luck have changed all of my 5e games for the better. As a disclaimer, after doing a video and article about them, Kobold Press commissioned me to write about them in the upcoming Monster Vault 2.
The way I use them, doom points replace legendary resistance. Bosses might have between like two and five of them. A doom point can be used just like legendary resistance except they can also use it for other things. They can rip through a force cage or punch through a wall of force. They can cause their breath weapon to penetrate immunity or resistances. They can take an extra action. They can recharge abilities. They can get advantage on all their attacks. They can destroy one of their minions and get a pile of temporary hit points.
The only limitation on doom points (in my games) is that there are only so many of them and the players know I have them. They know that, no matter what BS I pull off, I can only do it two to five times.
Obviously I don't use doom points all the time. I also warn players if their save or suck spell is likely to get subverted with a doom point so they don't waste it. Often they do it anyway in the hope of burning a doom point.
Doom points help me, as a GM, ensure a powerful monster meets its in-world expectation and fiction. It isn't a way for me to punish players. My goal is to steer those save or suck abilities to powerful minions where taking them out with something like a suggestion is fine, sometimes even necessary.
But boss monsters in D&D need help. They have for as long as I can remember. Doom points help.
I've used them in three different 5e games now with about 18ish players and though they grumble sometimes when I use them, all of them said they like them when I talked to them afterwards. They all saw them as an interesting dynamic effect that keeps the battle interesting.
More here:
Dreadful Blessings – A Mechanic to Protect 5e Boss Monsters
Bosses need help. Bosses often face the full wrath of the characters, just for being a boss. This focus often leads to anticlimactic fights in which the boss is ineffective at fulfilling the role it h...
Note, I call them "dreadful blessings" in my own game and usually tie them to a BBEG. Last night one of the bosses had "Blessings of Lolth". In my City of Arches game they're "Blessings of the Nameless King". In my Dragon empire game they're "Blessings of Ibbalan" (the big boss dragon the characters face). This gives them a sort of otherworldly in-fiction feel that I like.
When I want boss monsters to matter, I use a hit box method that works really well for me.
But this thread is really about how D&D still has save or suck spells, and how that sucks.
The Firebird
Hero
This seems like a good modification to LR because it makes burning LR useful even if the boss goes down from hp damage. Right now it can feel as if spellcasters and martials are working on totally distinct clocks and the one doesn't help the other.
I love 5E. But, I've had some version of this experience multiple times. Yes, save or suck spells are partly to blame. But what compounds the problem is the sheer versatility of D&D spellcasters. When the same character can cast suggestion, fireball, fly, etc it wreaks havoc with encounter design. Like a Swiss Army knife, they've got the solution to every problem. It's why I love the constrained, thematic spellcasting of Shadow of the Demon Lord/Weird Wizard.
Additionally, solos simply don't work in 5E. Not without extensive house ruling. I see Mike has talked about Doom Points, which sound pretty cool. I'm going to check that out. Myself, I've created a new class of legendary actions that simply allow boss monsters to automatically succeed a certain number of times per encounter. Legendary Attack, Legendary Damage, Legendary Critical, Legendary Recovery, Legendary Movement, etc.
At minimum, bosses need a couple brutes and a horde of minions. And waves never hurt, either. It really comes down to action economy. When I play with 3 PCs, encounter balance works well. But with a party of 5 PCs? I fight dirty.
Finally, I've learned to roll with it. When the dice give me lemons, I try to make lemonade. The half-dragon that got away? He's definitely coming back. He knows the characters' tricks, he'll take countermeasures, and even use those same tricks against them. Now you've got a formidable, motivated, recurring villain.
Additionally, solos simply don't work in 5E. Not without extensive house ruling. I see Mike has talked about Doom Points, which sound pretty cool. I'm going to check that out. Myself, I've created a new class of legendary actions that simply allow boss monsters to automatically succeed a certain number of times per encounter. Legendary Attack, Legendary Damage, Legendary Critical, Legendary Recovery, Legendary Movement, etc.
At minimum, bosses need a couple brutes and a horde of minions. And waves never hurt, either. It really comes down to action economy. When I play with 3 PCs, encounter balance works well. But with a party of 5 PCs? I fight dirty.
Finally, I've learned to roll with it. When the dice give me lemons, I try to make lemonade. The half-dragon that got away? He's definitely coming back. He knows the characters' tricks, he'll take countermeasures, and even use those same tricks against them. Now you've got a formidable, motivated, recurring villain.
Eh... As a designer, I'm of two minds about it.
1) Save or Suck spells have to exist in order to fulfill the mandates of the fantasy that inspires D&D and other TTRPGs.
Whether it's charming, domination, paralysis, dancing, or whatever else, there's just tons of precedent for stuff that takes hold and you're unable to do anything else once it has. It's just part of genre fiction in general. Whether that's a vampire holding you in it's gaze from various movies and stories, the pied piper playing his flute to steal your kids, or some kind of powerful magic that stops you in your tracks and renders you insensate, or a newt.
... I got better!
You just cannot get rid of binaristic spellcasting effects while staying true to what came before.
2) They really suck and need some limits in their use structures.
Famously, practically any "Save or Suck" effect of an NPC in D&D is "if you succeed you become immune for 24 hours". I think that was a great improvement over things, myself. Tack on saves at the end of your turn to break free, and you've got a pretty solid structure. But I would put a couple other limits on them, myself.
Firstly, they're not combat magic for the most part. Charm Person, for example, gives your target advantage on the saving throw if they're in combat with you at the time. Throw that onto spells like Suggestion or Command, too.
Secondly, expand resistance. If you save against Suggestion you are immune to the spell for 24 hours, and gain advantage against other Enchantments during the same time.
Because as we saw in the OP's example, the issue wasn't just "Save or Suck". It was REPEATED save or suck applied to the enemy over and over and over again.
It was like the IRA once said to Margaret Thatcher. "We only have to be lucky once. You have to be lucky every time."
1) Save or Suck spells have to exist in order to fulfill the mandates of the fantasy that inspires D&D and other TTRPGs.
Whether it's charming, domination, paralysis, dancing, or whatever else, there's just tons of precedent for stuff that takes hold and you're unable to do anything else once it has. It's just part of genre fiction in general. Whether that's a vampire holding you in it's gaze from various movies and stories, the pied piper playing his flute to steal your kids, or some kind of powerful magic that stops you in your tracks and renders you insensate, or a newt.
... I got better!
You just cannot get rid of binaristic spellcasting effects while staying true to what came before.
2) They really suck and need some limits in their use structures.
Famously, practically any "Save or Suck" effect of an NPC in D&D is "if you succeed you become immune for 24 hours". I think that was a great improvement over things, myself. Tack on saves at the end of your turn to break free, and you've got a pretty solid structure. But I would put a couple other limits on them, myself.
Firstly, they're not combat magic for the most part. Charm Person, for example, gives your target advantage on the saving throw if they're in combat with you at the time. Throw that onto spells like Suggestion or Command, too.
Secondly, expand resistance. If you save against Suggestion you are immune to the spell for 24 hours, and gain advantage against other Enchantments during the same time.
Because as we saw in the OP's example, the issue wasn't just "Save or Suck". It was REPEATED save or suck applied to the enemy over and over and over again.
It was like the IRA once said to Margaret Thatcher. "We only have to be lucky once. You have to be lucky every time."
How do y'all feel about PF2e's Degrees of Success/Failure vs spells, with regards to addressing Save or Suck?
On another note, I just realized that pf2e still has Suggestion as a 3rd level spell, like it used to be in earlier editions
Suggestion - Spells - Archives of Nethys: Pathfinder 2nd Edition Database
Your honeyed words are difficult for creatures to resist. You suggest a course of action to the target, which must be phrased in such a way as to seem like a logical course of action to the target and can't be self-destructive or obviously against the target's self-interest. The target must...
2e.aonprd.com
On another note, I just realized that pf2e still has Suggestion as a 3rd level spell, like it used to be in earlier editions
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