D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

As a note one possible answer to low level control spells might be to follow the design philosophy of something like the 2014 Sleep spell. It's great at low level but runs out of steam pretty fast as you level up forcing you to start using higher level spells.

Doesn't even have to be HP based like Sleep was, say for example Suggestion worked off of CR and any creature whose CR was higher then the spell level used would auto-save. Still great at low levels, still useful at higher levels for out of combat situations but in combat at higher levels it's not going to cut it.

The point being you can design your low level control spells to be natively less effective at higher tier play.
 

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Sorinth said:
As a note one possible answer to low level control spells might be to follow the design philosophy of something like the 2014 Sleep spell. It's great at low level but runs out of steam pretty fast as you level up forcing you to start using higher level spells.

Doesn't even have to be HP based like Sleep was, say for example Suggestion worked off of CR and any creature whose CR was higher then the spell level used would auto-save. Still great at low levels, still useful at higher levels for out of combat situations but in combat at higher levels it's not going to cut it.

The point being you can design your low level control spells to be natively less effective at higher tier play.
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That just exacerbates the faulty D&D design of higher level casters having essentially useless low level slots.

Really casting needs a complete overhaul along with save or suck spells.
 



UngainlyTitan said:
That is all very well but at that point is the game still D&D?
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Well, casting has changed a fair bit over the editions and still is considered DnD. I'm probably biased, but I think casting got a little too versatile. Classic Vancian casting was weird and different, it was classically DnD, and it meant, with few exceptions, that you had to make do with the tools that you'd chosen at the start of the day. That being said, it's also IME unlikely that less player-friendly spellcasting systems would be adopted by players that came on-board with 5e's modern pseudo-vancian casting. Ultimately they more often than not desire the ultra-versatile mana/spell points method.

My favorite system thus far ofc is DCC's roll-to-cast system, where higher roll results alter the spell output.
 

Reynard said:
Is it "not D&D" if you change spell level distribution? If so, D&D is a pretty weak paradigm.
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I am referring more to the save or suck spells. They have been overhauled over the years, and I am ok with them to be honest. I really do not have your issues with it.
I also do not have an issue the low-level spell slots. Predictability, as to close fights is not a thing D&D does.
Arguably D&D's magic paradigm is a very D&D thing, with little relation to any other conception of magic.
 

UngainlyTitan said:
Arguably D&D's magic paradigm is a very D&D thing, with little relation to any other conception of magic.
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This I agree with, but I think there is room for change without it suddenly being "not D&D."

Save or suck spells as afflictions would be a food way to go. Your initial save result determines where you start on the track. Follow up failures make it worse ultimatelyending in REAL BAD, while follow up successes lessen the effect until CURED.
 


Reynard said:
This I agree with, but I think there is room for change without it suddenly being "not D&D."

Save or suck spells as afflictions would be a food way to go. Your initial save result determines where you start on the track. Follow up failures make it worse ultimatelyending in REAL BAD, while follow up successes lessen the effect until CURED.
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Arguably the least sucky version of Save and Suck D&D spells was the 4e versions where if memory serves one had progressing effects, up to 3 save before the really bad thing happened. People did not like it and it does add a lot of die rolls.
 

Micah Sweet said:
Why does every tweak someone wants for their ideal RPG have to be D&D?
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Because D&D is the most popular. And people naturally want to be part of what’s popular. Other systems don’t get the same level of critique because they don’t command the same cultural space.

Even D&D players do it. Critiquing D&D while still using it allows players to both belong to the dominant culture and signal their discerning taste. “I play D&D, but I’m not like those D&D players. I’ve refined it.”

And those who don’t even play it? They still show up to discuss it. Why? Because it’s popular.

It's popularity all the way down.
 
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