D&D (2024) It Is 2025 And Save Or Suck Spells Still Suck (the fun out of the game)

Reynard said:

Again, one of the worst things a GM can do in my opinion is start an arms race with the players, and punishing them for success is just as bad.

That said, the dragon's lieutenant looking for revenge will definitely acquire something that grants protection from charm/mind control first.

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Not an "arms race", "modular difficulty" formed by "DM judgement."

MichaelSomething said:

Not an "arms race", "modular difficulty" formed by "DM judgement."

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Call it what you want, but I have never seen a table benefit from spot nerfing or revenge fudging.

I do have to admit that I'm getting a bit annoyed at those Bard spells that essentially take out NPCs and Monsters out of action for most of the encounter. Especially when the effects are anti-climactic or comical when things were kind of serious.

Phantasmal Force, Tasha's Laughter and Dissonant Whispers are the biggest culprits so far. I wish some monsters had resistance to this kind of thing but eh, I'll follow my own advice and prepare to have things go slapstick all of a sudden.

Bae'zel said:

I do have to admit that I'm getting a bit annoyed at those Bard spells that essentially take out NPCs and Monsters out of action for most of the encounter. Especially when the effects are anti-climactic or comical when things were kind of serious.

Phantasmal Force, Tasha's Laughter and Dissonant Whispers are the biggest culprits so far. I wish some monsters had resistance to this kind of thing but eh, I'll follow my own advice and prepare to have things go slapstick all of a sudden.

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WaIt until you see the sorcerer.

I assume you're all throwing the recommended six to eight encounters per adventuring day, correct?? Because most encounters will be too easy if the PCs can just throw their highest level spells or whatever. You have to wear them down through several fights like in the old days!

Zardnaar said:

WaIt until you see the sorcerer.

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Are you referring to Wild Magic?

That was one of the first things that I vowed that I would either hack (eg, make my own table of wild effects that fit my campaign theme better) or just ban outright from play.

MichaelSomething said:

I assume you're all throwing the recommended six to eight encounters per adventuring day, correct?? Because most encounters will be too easy if the PCs can just throw their highest level spells or whatever. You have to wear them down through several fights like in the old days!

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That's true; I was too reliant on the random encounter chance dice (which turned out to be in the players' favor).

I will be more cautious; however nothing can stop some players from keeping their best powers "in reserve".

This is just an off-the-cuff thought, but on the issue of Suggestion: What happens when the Suggestion conflicts with other orders? Not past orders (like the guard at the gate), but, in the case of the OP's example, what if the dragon just says, "Where do you think you're going? Get over here and fight!"

Getting someone to leave the library when there's no one to contradict the Suggestion is easy, but getting someone to leave a fight when a superior is right there giving them orders? That seems a lot iffy-er. This isn't a Dominate spell.

And then there's this part of the spell description: "The suggestion must sound achievable and not involve anything that would obviously deal damage to the target or it allies." Leaving the dragon sounds like it would "obviously" lead to damage to the abomination's ally, the dragon, since a bunch of adventurers just walked in loaded for bear. (If it happened at a dinner party, on the other hand, there would be no obvious expectation of violence.)

Even the "achievable" part of that phrase can have an impact. If your boss will brutally beat you if you disobey orders, and is right there watching you, leaving the room is not really an "achievable" goal.

My feel for the spell is that it makes something you suggested seem like a reasonable thing to do (even without that caveat in the spell description), and, absent other factors, causes the target to do that reasonable thing. However direct orders almost always override "doing a reasonable thing", because orders by their very nature demand ignoring the reasonable in favor of the unreasonable.

Now, if the Suggestion was, "Ignore the dragon; he's not the boss of you.", then the outcome is more likely in the players' favor. At least until the abomination decides he just likes a good fight, and doesn't have to be held back by the dragon's whimsy.

Kinematics said:

Now, if the Suggestion was, "Ignore the dragon; he's not the boss of you.", then the outcome is more likely in the players' favor. At least until the abomination decides he just likes a good fight, and doesn't have to be held back by the dragon's whimsy.

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I don't follow how this would somehow be more reasonable.

If there is anything less fun than having the wizard eliminate a lieutenant with one spell, it is spending 30 minutes of table time arguing over the exact phrasing of a suggestion. In the end, since the player literally pulled the wording from the PHB, and a fight had not yet started, I went with it.

billd91 said:

I think one of the problems is the players also veto uses. Is it reasonable, on the flipside, for a spellcasting creature in its lair that the PCs have invaded looking for loot to suggest "Go home the fastest way you can." Pretty much yes - at the very least, I have a hard time finding a way to make that truly unreasonable. But you KNOW the players are going to argue that it is unreasonable. The current wording of suggestion at least resolves that friction point.

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"Retreat from this battle and go home, it is too dangerous" is more reasonable.

Leaving a battle in the middle of a fight to go home for no reason? That isn't. To me, suggestion should cite and be compatible with some core motivations of the target.

I wish suggestion had interacted with the ideals/goals/etc mechanism of 5e D&D. If the suggestion is against more Bonds, Ideals (and supported by Flaws) than it is supported by Bonds and Ideals (and opposed by Flaws), then the suggestion is unreasonable. If tied, the save is at advantage.