Other D&D Variant Dragonsbane Vs Shadowdark

I don't see any reason that Dragonbane is any less worthy of a longer campaign than Shadowdark (or most other games really). I have been running a bi-weekly Dragonbane campaign for six months now, and my group is loving it. I also just started an online Shadowdark campaign last week with a different group, and THEY love it!
I guess you would just have to ask yourself...do you prefer something fast and loose that is a strong reminder of old school D&D, or would you prefer a fast, less crunchy version of Runequest?
But...hold a crossbow to my head, and I would probably pick Shadowdark at this point, as it more closely matches the sword and sorcery vibe I prefer. That may change when I get the Dragonbane kickstarter for the new Magic Book, but right now (despite Dragonbane's Boxed set being the Best Value in RPG's right now), I would have to go with Shadowdark...with all the Cursed Scrolls of course! :)
 

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Do you think Dragonbane lends itself less to campaign play compared to Shadowdark? I don't really see any reason why
In an interview with Tomas Harenstam, the Free League CEO, he suggests between 20-30 sessions (at about the 10 minute mark). "The core game works for short to medium campaigns."

Essentially, what the core of Dragonbane designed similar to the experience as expected by Basic D&D and there isn't an "Expert" equivalent yet. [Even though the original Swedish version had different boxed sets to cover expanded tiers of play.]

For me, it's hard to have long campaigns in a level-less system. You don't really get better gear, more HP, more powerful abilities, or face more dangerous foes. Your character won't see much growth if you've played 1 session or 20. For me, that's not exciting for long-term play. That said, we played through the entirety of the boxed set adventure compilation in 12-15 sessions and had a good time.

Not every game has to last for years like a Paizo Adventure Path to be an excellent time.

Edit: I can't share the link to the YouTube interview. Try searching for Knights of Last Call and Tomas Harenstam.
 

In an interview with Tomas Harenstam, the Free League CEO, he suggests between 20-30 sessions (at about the 10 minute mark). "The core game works for short to medium campaigns."

Essentially, what the core of Dragonbane designed similar to the experience as expected by Basic D&D and there isn't an "Expert" equivalent yet. [Even though the original Swedish version had different boxed sets to cover expanded tiers of play.]

For me, it's hard to have long campaigns in a level-less system. You don't really get better gear, more HP, more powerful abilities, or face more dangerous foes. Your character won't see much growth if you've played 1 session or 20. For me, that's not exciting for long-term play. That said, we played through the entirety of the boxed set adventure compilation in 12-15 sessions and had a good time.

Not every game has to last for years like a Paizo Adventure Path to be an excellent time.

Edit: I can't share the link to the YouTube interview. Try searching for Knights of Last Call and Tomas Harenstam.
It's interesting how there might be a divide between player interests and GM interests when it comes to this. One of my favorite parts of Dragonbane - as a GM - is that there is no hp bloat and that the player characters don't get so powerful that it turns into a fantasy super-hero game. But if I were a player, I would probably want a bigger power progression for my character.
 

Essentially, what the core of Dragonbane designed similar to the experience as expected by Basic D&D and there isn't an "Expert" equivalent yet. [Even though the original Swedish version had different boxed sets to cover expanded tiers of play.]
There have been interviews suggesting that their Expert book may be on the horizon after the City of Arkand and Book of Magic books. It wouldn't surprise me if FL did something like the Box Set and this latest Kickstarter, having both an adventure/campaign book that can be rolled out alongside the mechanics book.

Do you want a D&D variant or a Glorantha variant?

With the caveat that Glorantha back in the day was just a D&D variant itself?
I guess you would just have to ask yourself...do you prefer something fast and loose that is a strong reminder of old school D&D, or would you prefer a fast, less crunchy version of Runequest?
Apart from duck people, there isn't really anything "Glorantha" about Dragonbane. Drakar och Demoner wasn't even originally based on RuneQuest or Glorantha directly. It came out of Chaosium's Magic World from their World of Wonders book, which was basically D&Difying BRP. Though Chaosium's Basic Roleplaying system was developed for Glorantha and published as RuneQuest, Glorantha actually predates BRP. The fact that both Glorantha and Dragonbane has "ducks" may actually be more incidental than anything, due to a Swedish love of Donald Duck, Duck Tales, and Arne Anka.

But...hold a crossbow to my head, and I would probably pick Shadowdark at this point, as it more closely matches the sword and sorcery vibe I prefer. That may change when I get the Dragonbane kickstarter for the new Magic Book, but right now (despite Dragonbane's Boxed set being the Best Value in RPG's right now), I would have to go with Shadowdark...with all the Cursed Scrolls of course! :)
I was working on two different hacks of Dragonbane earlier this year,* but I put them on hold due to the then upcoming Kickstarter. Among other reasons, I didn't want to work on developing an Alchemy system if Free League was going to include one in their Book of Magic. Unsurprisingly, Alchemy was unlocked as a magic tradition in their Kickstarter.**

* One based on the Iron Age Mediterranean cultures/myths and the other more science-fantasy and based on Nausicaa: Valley of the Wind, Numenera, and Symbaroum.

* Along with Harmonism, Demonology, Necromancy, Witchcraft, Illusionism, Symbolism, and Dragon Magic. In addition to new spells for the existing schools of Animism, Elementalism, and Mentalism.🤤
 

I have played a couple games of Shadowdark and I love it, despite my normal preference for more rules-heavy games. I really enjoy the classic D&D vibe. That being said, while I have not played Dragonbane, my buddy played a three-session game while we were at Gencon and had nothing but good things to say about it, and I trust his judgment.
 

The fact that both Glorantha and Dragonbane has "ducks" may actually be more incidental than anything, due to a Swedish love of Donald Duck, Duck Tales, and Arne Anka.
This is Howard the Duck erasure. He was improbably popular in the 1970s.

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Looking at picking up a new system. I am currently leaning towards either Shadowdark or Dragonsbane. How to they compare and what are their selling points for those who have tried one or the other or both.
Both are great games. You won’t go wrong either way.

The mechanics are different but both are shooting for roughly the same (or similar) play experience. Lower magic, zero to hero, deadly combat, exploration matters, etc. They take different approaches though.

If you want the more standard D&D-like experience, Shadowdark is a better fit. It’s based on 5E but modified to give an old-school feel. Standard race, class, level, etc. Feels a bit more survival horror than Dragonbane. Fantastic black and white art.

If you want something mechanically different than D&D, Dragonbane is a better fit. It’s a roll-low d20 version of Basic Roleplaying. Race as you’d expect but class as skill packages and anyone can learn any skill. Slightly less deadly than Shadowdark. More of a lighter feel. It really lives up to the Mirth & Mayhem tag. Some of the best and most evocative color art I’ve seen in a fantasy game in decades.

Shadowdark is more popular but I prefer Dragonbane.

There are general threads for both.

Dragonbane general thread

 



Both are excellent games that are worth your consideration. I cannot stress that enough. I do favor one game over the other but that is not because I feel that the other game is somehow inferior. It's just a matter of preferences. I do think that here on ENWorld, you are going to get a lot more people pointing you in the direction of Shadowdark.

But let's be clear. They are different types of games, albeit with some overlap. Shadowdark is OSR (with more modern design) without just being a retro-clone of a previous edition of D&D. In contrast, Dragonbane is "Neo-Trad, and here I use "Neo-Trad" in its original sense, as coined by Tomas Härenstam of Free League Publishing:

While he is talking about Mutant: Year Zero, the basis of Free League's Year Zero Engine, I would say that this also applies to Dragonbane. But Dragonbane isn't OSR in the sense that it's nostalgic for old school D&D. Instead, Dragonbane is like an updated version of Sweden's own Drakar och Demoner, which evolved out of Basic Roleplay in Sweden. So it's Neo-Trad but also with a different subject of old school nostalgia.

Shadowdark
Core Vibe: gritty dungeon crawling, lethal combat, survival emphasis
Mechanics
  • D&D family of games
  • d20 roll high against GM's DC system with D&D's six attributes
  • Simple class and level progression with randomized class progression
  • Dungeon Procedurals: real time torches, always on initiative, darkness matters, etc.
  • OSR Ethos: rules over rules, OSR principles, etc.
  • Magic: roll to cast with chance of mishaps

Dragonbane
Core Vibe: "mirth and mayhem" so it's a bit more pulpy and lighthearted "beer and pretzels" game (IMHO!)
Mechanics
  • Basic Roleplay family of games but simplified
  • d20 roll-under skill system
  • skill-based, not class/level-based
  • Push mechanic: fail a roll, you can retry but with consequences
  • Monsters (but not all enemies) always hit and the GM rolls what they do.
  • Magic: have spell prepared, roll to cast, spend Willpower point cost, also with chance of mishaps
  • Ducks. Duck people are a thing. Some people love it. Some hate it.

Official Support: Shadowdark has the core rulebook, and it finished its highly successful Western Reaches Kickstarter earlier this year, which expands the game with a lot of new material. Kelsey Dionne is also pumping out a lot of new content through her Cursed Scroll zine, some of which has been incorporated into the Western Reaches Kickstarter. You can get some Shadowdark material for free. I believe that the Quickstart rules give you a pretty solid chunk of the game for free.

Dragonbane is published by Free League, which comes with their usual high production quality. Dragonbane has an absolutely killer box set that comes with the full rules of the game!, solo rules and solo adventure, a complete sandbox adventure, dice, cardboard standees, battle mats, cards (treasure, initiative, improvised weapons), a map, pre-gen characters, and blank character sheets. Free League has also published a Bestiary and an adventure path (Path of Glory) for Dragonbane. They had a Kickstarter this year for a city campaign (City of Arkand) and a new magic book (The Book of Magic), which we should be getting the beta preview files for "soon."

3rd Party Support: You will be able to find a lot of 3rd party products and fan materials for both games. So if that is you concern, then don't worry about it. There are a lot of adventures and modules out there for both games.

There are more Shadowdark materials than Dragonbane, but Shadowdark is hot stuff in the OSR community, particularly as a gateway OSR product or for people who primarily play(ed) D&D. Shadowdark is more English-language accessible.

Dragonbane (Drakar och Demoner) was basically Sweden's "native D&D" game, so a lot of the support comes initially out of the Nordic area. That doesn't mean that there is no English fan support. It's just that a lot of the enthusiasm and products are also primarily coming out of Sweden.*

* From what I recall, when Free League announced that they had the rights to Drakar och Demoner (Dragons & Demons), they were actually surprised that there was any desire from English-speakers for the game in English, and then they were suprised by the popularity the game had from the English-speaking sphere for a Swedish game.

I have an ongoing Dragonbane game that I am playing with my partner, using the box set. They have enjoyed it. It's one of the handful of TTRPGs that my partner has expressed interest in playing again. Part of the reason has to do with the things like the standees, cards, and such as well as the roll under system so they never have to look to me about success. We will probably have another game session this weekend.

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I do think that part of the appeal of Dragonbane for me is that it exists outside of D&D's usual wheelhouse of classes, spells, monsters, divine and arcane magic, etc. So as a filthy American who comes from the D&D side of the hobby with no prior experience with Drakar och Demoner, Dragonbane feels fresher and more unique. That's just me. But that will be the exact reason why other people will love Shadowdark; it's another variety of D&D.
This was great! You deserve extra emojis for leaving one of the most reasonable, thoughtful comments I've read in days. 👍👏😊
 

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