D&D 5E (2024) 3 cantrips per round with the Bladesinger’s Extra Attack, Eldritch Knight’s War Magic and Haste? (5 with Action Surge?)

Horwath · Monday at 8:41 AM

Zardnaar said:
Mechanical balance. Want 3 or 4 attacks be a fighter.

more like poor attempt at niche protection and not balance.

Zardnaar · Monday at 8:45 AM

Horwath said:
more like poor attempt at niche protection and not balance.

Niche protection can include balance.

Silam · Monday at 12:26 PM

Horwath said:
more like poor attempt at niche protection and not balance.

3.5 allowed all martial classes to go up to 4 attacks, and it was somewhat easy to reach that number of attacks in multi-class builds too.

5e designers wanted Fighters to be unique in that regard… though there are plenty of alternative ways to do more attacks if one is willing to spend bonus actions or other abilities

TwoSix · Monday at 1:10 PM

Horwath said:
never understood why extra attack does not stack?

if you want to be fighter 5/barbarian 5/ranger 5/paladin 5 and make 5 attacks per Attack Action, why not?

that is your capstone, enjoy that and your four 3rd level subclass features.

Because there aren’t high level martial class features that compete with the ability to make yet another attack.

The belief is too many people would feel compelled to take the 5/5/5/5 progression to maximize attacks. They could have come up with a MC system to allow Extra Attacks to increase with martial progression, I’m sure, but time ran out on the playtest.

The developers certainly felt weird about extra attacks in general, since the obvious progression would be new attacks at 5,11,17 to match cantrip scaling. I think they would preferred the 4e and 5e cantrip paradigm of ascending dice per attack rather than more attacks, but feedback was too strong for preference of a multi-attack martial paradigm.

Horwath · Monday at 1:45 PM

TwoSix said:
Because there aren’t high level martial class features that compete with the ability to make yet another attack.

The belief is too many people would feel compelled to take the 5/5/5/5 progression to maximize attacks. They could have come up with a MC system to allow Extra Attacks to increase with martial progression, I’m sure, but time ran out on the playtest.

The developers certainly felt weird about extra attacks in general, since the obvious progression would be new attacks at 5,11,17 to match cantrip scaling. I think they would preferred the 4e and 5e cantrip paradigm of ascending dice per attack rather than more attacks, but feedback was too strong for preference of a multi-attack martial paradigm.

I too agree with extra attacks being better than extra damage on single attack.
maybe cantrips could have followed similar way.
at 5th level you can cast 2 Action cantrips per Action or 2 Bonus action cantrips per Bonus action. 3 at 11th, etc....

or fighter could have gotten extra attacks at levels 5,9,13,17 and some actually interesting capstone instead of one more attack. Then by default you would be worse with multiclassing by atleast one level.

Weiley31 · Monday at 4:26 PM

Horwath said:
never understood why extra attack does not stack?

if you want to be fighter 5/barbarian 5/ranger 5/paladin 5 and make 5 attacks per Attack Action, why not?

that is your capstone, enjoy that and your four 3rd level subclass features.

Horwath said:
I understand the rules, but do not understand the logic behind it.

Zardnaar said:
Mechanical balance. Want 3 or 4 attacks be a fighter.

Pretty much, it's a Fighter schtick to not completely invalidate them.

mellored · Monday at 5:41 PM

Horwath said:
I too agree with extra attacks being better than extra damage on single attack.

Extra attack is a multiplier.

I.e.
Conjure Minor Elemental: is +2d8 each attack.
It's balanced for 2 attacks (4d8), but if you could get 3 or 4 (8d8), it becomes broken.

You would have to change all the "each attack" to "once per turn" in order to allow multiple attacks stacking.

Rabulias · Monday at 5:46 PM

mellored said:
And some spells may run out before you get them all up. 1 minute duration is only 6 rounds.

While this is a concern for this exercise, 1 minute is 10 rounds.

Horwath · Monday at 8:57 PM

mellored said:
Extra attack is a multiplier.

I.e.
Conjure Minor Elemental: is +2d8 each attack.
It's balanced for 2 attacks (4d8), but if you could get 3 or 4 (8d8), it becomes broken.

You would have to change all the "each attack" to "once per turn" in order to allow multiple attacks stacking.

problem is upcasting, not +2d8 base bonus.
and most is with "scorching ray exploit".

Zardnaar · Monday at 9:19 PM

Horwath said:
problem is upcasting, not +2d8 base bonus.
and most is with "scorching ray exploit".

Scorching ray
Spellfire Flare (any class can aquire this spell).
Action surge/dual wielding

And potentially the new Eberron stuff. Eg a Champion fighter dual wielding advantage to hit, +3d8 (4d8 if you don't use errata) and expanded crit range (6d8 or 8d8 damage on top of everything else).

Any class can now aquire it at least on Eberron. This adds sorcerer abuse as well.
Shifts it from potentially a problem theory craft to likely a problem real game.

Eberron fighters probably the mist broken class now (in a real game).

D&D 5E (2024) 3 cantrips per round with the Bladesinger’s Extra Attack, Eldritch Knight’s War Magic and Haste? (5 with Action Surge?)

Horwath

Legend

Zardnaar

Legend

Silam

Villager

TwoSix

The Year of the TwoSix

Horwath

Legend

Weiley31

Legend

mellored

Legend

Rabulias

the Incomparably Shrewd and Clever

Horwath

Legend

Zardnaar

Legend

Similar Threads

Enchanted Trinkets Complete

Recent & Upcoming Releases