D&D General Lies, Darn Lies, and Statistics: Why DPR Isn't the Stat to Rule them All

FrogReaver · Jan 22, 2026

MichaelSomething said:
If DPS is that important to a character, they'll take a +4 weapon with a -6 constitution penalty any day of the week!

That's a very odd take.

Retros_x · Jan 22, 2026

I absolutely agree and I am extremely annoyed about DPR as main focus in a lot of discussions. Even if you focus on combat and leave out all the other aspects of D&D DPR only makes sense... for characters in damage dealing roles.

Thats how we end up with "monks are super bad", but when I played a monk our table agreed that he often was a MVP because of its flexibility. Sure he can't tank as well as a barb, but our wizard was glad when a strong enemy martial wanted to get to him and the barb couldn't make it to him, but my monk could jump in, block the path and hold it with patient defense. Or when he could easily reach a wizard on a heightened position to stunlock them.

Our right now I am playing a control focused wizard. My DPR sucks, but our DM is (playfully, not actually) frustrated with me, because I often "ruin" his encounters. Often I can warp for example an encounter versus 4 enemies virtually into two encounters with 2 enemies, because I keep two enemies out of action economy via control spells while the rest of my party gangs up on the other two.

On paper these two characters would get treated in a lot of white room balance discussions as "weak", but the opposite was the case. And this is only the combat perspective, I wholeheartedly agree that characters effectiveness should be considered out of combat too.

TwoSix · Jan 22, 2026

ECMO3 said:
This is true, but what you really end up with is an answer or solution dominated by assumptions.

I’d like to introduce you to my friend Spherical Cow.

Sword of Spirit · Jan 22, 2026

jolt said:
Many rpg's nowadays heavily suggest a session 0 for the whole group so they can make characters together. D&D and adjacent games like PF should do the same. Neither game really suits the solo adventurer so it's best to make sure you fir in well with the rest of the group. While you can (usually) make any group dynamic work, you'll be more effective if you take into account what everyone can contribute rather than just yourself. Everyone wants to make a solo god even though characters are never played that way.

I agree.

In context of DPR and other factors, every so often I make some comparisons of the actual characters in the party's at-will DPR and virtual at-will DPR (including things like hex), and also find a way to include estimates for things like battle master maneuvers (since we have a battle master). For both the at-will and virtual at-will I have two numbers, one for single target and one for multi target (since green-flame blade is also present).

I do this primarily because of my home brew warrior-mage class being present, but it's also very useful to see if the relative power if the characters is balanced. It is useful because I am intimately familiar with what all these characters can and actually do do in play. DPR is only one factor, but it's a factor I can get a good statistical view of fur comparison purposes.

I have to do this because I not only have a home brew class but occasionally implement new house rules (one of the more recent ones in additional off-hand attacks when dual wielding with Extra Attack).

I run the numbers from current all the way up to where I imagine it might be at 20th.

Fortunately, the relative DPR in the party has ended up about where it should be balanced with other party capabilities. The dual-wielding battle master fighter is the melee king with the pact of the blade warlock and swashbuckler rogue pretty close (rogue slightly edging ahead at most levels), the warrior-mage next, though at some levels at bit ahead of the warlock or rogue if we assumed they could hit 2 targets with green-flame blade every round, and the lore bard a distant 5th with their cantrip. (Other than the bard, who is our dedicated caster, healer, and skills and knowledge character, everyone else is primarily melee.)

Misanthrope Prime · Jan 22, 2026

TwoSix said:
I’d like to introduce you to my friend Spherical Cow.

Isn't that just a meatball?

TwoSix · Jan 22, 2026

Misanthrope Prime said:
Isn't that just a meatball?

On top of spaghetti, all covered with cheese.

CreamCloud0 · Jan 22, 2026

TwoSix said:
On top of spaghetti, all covered with cheese.

spherical cow meatball can be used to produce it's own cheese.

MichaelSomething · Jan 23, 2026

FrogReaver said:
That's a very odd take.

Would you prefer a +4 weapon that when attuned, makes all the food you eat taste as if it had no seasoning???
Or a +4 weapon that plays Rick Ashley's "Never gonna give you up" on an endless loop??

FrogReaver · Jan 23, 2026

MichaelSomething said:
Would you prefer a +4 weapon that when attuned, makes all the food you eat taste as if it had no seasoning???
Or a +4 weapon that plays Rick Ashley's "Never gonna give you up" on an endless loop??

No idea

. What does this have to do with anything?