D&D General Exhaustion levels *before* death saves

Li Shenron said:

It's because as far as I remember nobody proposes this before death saving throws, but rather as a replacement for being unconscious. Here even a death spiral adds a buffer.

In addition, the general discussions are pretty much always assuming the game continues. I will use these in a one-shot, specifically for the purposes of using a bit higher CR monsters and wanting the PCs to keep fighting longer, and not die anyway (most likely in the last combat encounter). Even with penalties, the output of their economy of actions will be better than falling unconscious immediately.

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Regardless of how they’re combined I think death saves and exhaustion work together about as well as a lit match and gasoline.

Also, did you see the other half of my post? Given i edited it in an you didn’t quote it.

From the rules you have, it looks like there is no round-by-round check or deterioration: Someone who goes down will just stay down for the rest of the fight at one exhaustion level unless they take damage.

Given that this drives game engagement worse than the death or dying rule, and you will have several beginners on your table, I think sidelining a player for a significant portion of a fight probably isn't the way to go.

I would suggest that you ensure all the characters have a decent number of healing potions and/or goodberries each. If everyone has the option of getting a fellow player back into the fight, that lets everyone engage with the tactical puzzle of getting to them and reviving them. Better than the player of the downed character just sitting back and pulling out their phone.

Creamcloud0's idea of making death saves but reviving on any success is also a good one for an introductory session as well.

CreamCloud0 said:

Regardless of how they’re combined I think death saves and exhaustion work together about as well as a lit match and gasoline.

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I find this an interesting take... because I personally have not had this issue with Exhaustion and death saves that you seem to think is in place? Which makes me wonder if perhaps my methodology of "combining" the Exhaustion chart and death saving throws is different than how you are envisioning them to combine?

It's quite possible that how you see them working together is different than how I've been doing it for my own method, because mine actually makes it more difficult for PCs to die. Mine basically doubles the number of failures a PC can take before they die-- rather than 3 failed death saves killing a PC, they have to fail 6 saves to reach the bottom of the Exhaustion chart. Now granted... the fact that that PCs in my campaigns don't fall unconscious at 0 HP and instead remain on their feet, allows the PC in theory to stay in the fight and keep attacking-- which would result in them more likely taking additional attacks from enemies and thus automatically failing additional death saves when they do (rather than falling down unconscious 0 HP like in the normal rules and thus then usually being ignored by enemies who instead run off to go fight other upright PCs).

So in that regard, that might be why you might consider a "death spiral" type of situation as they could gain failed saves faster-- both from the death saving throws AND from attacks from enemies. But at least at my tables what usually occurs when PCs reach 0 HP but remain conscious is that they don't keep themselves in the fights to continue being attacked... but rather the players have their PCs disengage and retreat... hoping to get far enough out of combat to get a chance to be healed or take a potion or whatnot-- or even just stay far enough back and use ranged weapon attacks or use their actions to buff/debuff people instead of fighting. (Plus it should be said that I have additional houserules for retreating, so that also makes things easier and less deadly for my tables, which does admittedly skew my own perceptions on the situation.)

I guess at the end of the day it really comes down to how you see the two combine to create a whole, and what you would define as a "death spiral". For you, your definition is quite possibly 100% spot on! But at least for me it isn't as much of a "lit match and gasoline" situation.

MarkB said:

As I haven't read the previous thread you mentioned, can you clarify what "before death saves" actually means in this context? I was picturing the character still going unconscious, but accumulating exhaustion levels instead of death save fails each round. Is it instead that they remain conscious at 0 hp but gain a level of exhaustion, and subsequent levels for additional hits?

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Oh yes, I should have been clearer... what I mean with this house rule is that when dropping to zero HP they won't become unconscious, they will stay conscious but gain a level of exhaustion. Each time they get hit again while at zero HP, they'll get another level of exhaustion (or 2 on a crit). Only if they get 6 levels of exhaustion (which normally means death but not in this case) they will actually become unconscious and do death saves normally.

Seems cool.

Would you keep exhaustion recovery the same? 1 day=1 recovered point of exhaustion? Or would it they get it all back on a long rest?

I might also give them the option to drop unconscious at any time (to prevent getting too many levels of exhaustion and the long recovery time.)

CreamCloud0 said:

Just do something simple like doing the three basic death saves but they pop up with 1HP at the start of the round on a single success

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I prefer if they keep acting on their turn with a penalty. Doing the above means they'll have 45% chance of skipping a round and 55% chance of acting normally at no penalty.

CreamCloud0 said:

Additionally, you could just start them all off with an additional full hit die of HP.

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That would be ok to keep them longer above zero HP, but I still think that with the exhaustion levels they will be even safer.

TaranTheWanderer said:

Would you keep exhaustion recovery the same? 1 day=1 recovered point of exhaustion? Or would it they get it all back on a long rest?

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I am not thinking much about it because it's a one-night game. I don't expect them to drop to zero HP in the early battles because they are easy. Should any PC do drop and gain levels of exhaustion, they'll have an opportunity to rest long enough to recover them all before the final boss encounter. That's when I expect some PC to drop to zero. After that, the game is over so it won't matter.

My own homemade idea is "levels of health" working like a mixture of "storytelling system" and "exhaustion levels". It would work for special damage like diseases, poisons, loss of blood or life-draining powers. The recovery would work in a different way because it wouldn't be about healing hit points.

CreamCloud0 said:

True it’s a popular idea, but for as long as people have been associating the two they’ve also been realising it’s a terrible idea to do so, It just causes death spirals.

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Well yes....that's the point.

When people house rule the base death and dying rules, its normally because:

1) It too easy to live. Aka characters aren't squishy enough.
2) Healing in combat is too weak. Its just too efficient to wait until people drop to 0 then heal them.


Now if you don't agree with those premises and therefore don't house rule...that's perfectly fine. But for those that do, this is the very reason they do so. So yes you want a death spiral, going to 0 hp is meant to be BAD BAD BAD...you want players to avoid it by avoiding damage or healing earlier. You want them scared, not "just give me a top off guys and bring me back in".

Your system, if I understand correctly, basically allows a PC to withstand an extra 6 hits after hitting 0 HP, before dropping unconscious, and to continue to attack with cumulative penalties.

I would probably just give them double max HP to start.

Also your idea of using CR 1 and 2 monsters against a Level 1 party of newbs is likely to result in a TPK. Unless you’re planning on each encounter to be a solo. Even then, the idea that it would take a ‘lucky roll’ to know down a PC is probably wrong.