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Sure. That's not a bad method of hiding some secret places. It is put to good use in Palace of the Silver Princess, for example, where you can see it in a completely elemental form - not a bad thing for a module aimed at beginners. That said, I don't map on gridded paper anymore, for entirely...

I think it was pretty unimaginative, and Baldemar was downright bad, but that's just my personal opinion.

Okay, I reread the module, and I don't see your problem. Every time the PCs visit, there is a 10% chance of finding any of these characters. There is a good probability they will meet someone interesting - a captain of the keep, possible hirelings for the expedition, or the evil cleric. On...

Right, in an attempt to return to our original subject, I will try to comment on grodog's points: This is in many ways one of the initial assumptions of the thread (and elaborated upon in my second long post) - that the dungeon itself is an interesting and entertaining challenge, not merely a...

These sorts of devices are valuable as guidelines, but dangerous when they become constraints. They look like a good numerical guideline, but in truth, nothing can replace human judgement.

If we are talking formalised and compact, maybe between 25 and 30. If we take side-encounters, half-baked throwaway ideas and snippets which later evolved into adventuring... many more!

I feel I am sucked away from the original topic of this thread, but... It is a question independent of good or bad design. An adventure may generally be calibrated for a certain level range, but may include challenges and rewards outside that area. For example, the upper levels Necromancer's...

That's not a Monty Haul campaign. A Monty Haul campaign is one where rewards aren't balanced out by threats. If low level characters operate highly efficiently and get treasure beyond their normal PC levels by being clever, it is not Monty Haul gaming - it is just rewards for being clever and...

You are still operating from the assumptions that a) a party's wealth has to be balanced by level and player skill should not be a significant factor; b) a dungeon will be designed for one use only, strip-mined of loot and encounters, and never revisited. Naturally, there is no accounting for...

Yes, although the Drow modules didn't seem to treat them as totally emasculated - that may come from the novels.

I have to say those "Dave Arneson speaks" sidebars are just what a product like this needs: historical background and designer notes from actual play - very good!

Probably, but it would be abstracted further than the maps I analysed, and the end result would still be a very complicated (and probably graphically unintuitive) diagram. Maybe later. Quasqueton: being objective leads to information-free truisms like "the sky is blue", "racism is wrong" and...

Meh. I am absolutely, 100% positive that if WotC "R&D" (bwah hah hah) were removing classes, levels and hit points from the game, there would be a bunch of apologists here hailing it as the new pinnacle of good game design. Screw that. This change sucks, and there is no overwhelming need to...

Precisely. I know players who have done this successfully. I chose the one-sheet maps because they weren't too complicated and because the thread was intended to make a point and demonstrate a general principle. I would love to chart some of the more complex maps I have, but it would be a much...

Precisely! In fact, I will hazard to say that that is all that matters, because it is the players sitting around the game table who matter, not the NPCs and certainly not the milieu. Although a milieu sitting around a game table is a bewildering concept. ;) Verisimilitude is only important to...

With a slight delay, here are my replies and comments on points raised by posters up to #47. *** 1. Two approaches to dungeon design One already useful result from the thread is that I am now able to coherently formulate a thought on the purpose of dungeons which had been germinating in my...

Hello! Thank you for the insightful comments, all. I will try to write some answers tonight, and post them tomorrow morning. Some of them have been very illuminating - and shed light on how my interpretation of dungeon play doesn't encompass all possibilities and approaches. More on this later...

I don't have the time to read all these posts, but I have to say this redesign is just sad and pathetic. A good testament to how creativity and energy is sucked out of the game under the aegis of "balance" by an incomptent and inbred design culture. I don't care if it comes across as a personal...

And just a note: I opened a new thread on the subject of dungeon design and the problems of linearity. Sunless Citadel is discussed and compared with several other intor products - my claims that it is too linear seems to have been substantiated.

We seem to be in agreement - I don't think Sunless Citadel should have been a mini-campaign. It should have remained short and focused. However, Keep on the Borderlands was also short and focused, and had a base of operations and a few wilderness treks in addition to the dungeon. By being more...