D&D General 0 HP Magic Missile = Death?

[Zardnaar]

You still take damage 3 times, not once. Feel free to change the rules however you want of course. Personally I just wouldn't use MM against a dying PC to kill them off if it's not what the group wants out of the game.

I probably wouldn't either with 2 exceptions.

1. The EG has a reputation for ruthless efficiency. Mc Bastard they're tgat type of person.

2. Recurring big BBEG and in previous encounters PCs have used healing word.

 

[Guest 7037866]

Um. Because each separate source is a separate instance of, "each time you take damage."

Um, where is that in the text. It doesn't say "Each time you take damage while at 0 hit points you suffer a death save failure."

No. It does not mean all at once. It only means at the same time. If I go to a wall and hit it with a molitov cocktail, it takes that damage all at once. If I have 5 people throw 5 of them all at the same time, it takes 5 different instances of damage simultaneously. All of the damage is not one single instance of damage.

For Pete's sake I am not saying they are a single instance of damage, ok? I am saying you apply the damage at the same time because the spell specifies it is simultaneous. You can't determine an order to the missile hits because there isn't one.

If you get hit by a rocket launcher, that's all damage at once. If you get shot simultaneously by 10 different bullets, that's 10 separate instances of damage hitting you simultaneously.

But they aren't simultaneously. In fact, it's pretty much impossible. There is always an instance of time between them. However, in a fantasy world, it is possible that a magical spell could have each missile hit at the exact same moment when it specifies that it does.

If you, me, @Oofta and @Paul Farquhar all rolled a d6 at the same time, we each separately rolled 1d6 simultaneously. If you roll 4d6 at the same time, you've rolled 4d6 all at once.

Sure, but what are we doing with the individual d6's? Are we adding them as in the case of the 4d6 roll? If we are, then the fact is is simultaneous is irrelevent because there unless there is also some game consequence to it.

Simultaneously =/= all at once.

Really?

because all at once is the same as saying all at the same time...

Why does it matter whether they're simultaneous or not? Where in the rules does it ever state that simultaneous attacks count as a single hit while sequential attacks are separate?

I'm not saying they count as a single hit. I'm saying the damage is applied at one time, as so you cannot rule which damage reduces the pc to 0 hp, the total amount does.

This is true.

This does not follow from your previous statement.

For the sake of clarity, I am debating this from the position of when the spell reduces the pc to 0 hp, not if the pc is already at 0 hp.

FWIW, my original post agreed with the OP if the pc is already at 0 hp. We don't play it that way because it is cheesy and just rule it as one failed death save, not multiple.

If you are only concerned when the pc is already at 0 hp, then there is nothing to discuss.

 

[Maxperson]

Um, where is that in the text. It doesn't say "Each time you take damage while at 0 hit points you suffer a death save failure."

If I have to explain that to you... I mean, at this point you are literally arguing that you can only be forced to take a death save once ever if you get hit while at a 0, because it doesn't say, "Each time you take damage while at 0 hit points you suffer a death save failure."

For Pete's sake I am not saying they are a single instance of damage, ok? I am saying you apply the damage at the same time because the spell specifies it is simultaneous. You can't determine an order to the missile hits because there isn't one.

I can absolutely determine an order. I am the DM and fully capable of making a ruling to cover a hole in the rules.

But they aren't simultaneously. In fact, it's pretty much impossible. There is always an instance of time between them. However, in a fantasy world, it is possible that a magical spell could have each missile hit at the exact same moment when it specifies that it does.

No. There will pretty much always be time in-between simultaneous events here in the real world, because there will be .000000000000001 second or something in-between. We use simultaneous, because we either cannot determine the time or because it's so close as to not matter. People will describe a bunch of things happening with very small, but often discernable amounts of time in-between as simultaneous, because the very small amount of time just doesn't matter.

I mean, how often have you seen in a war/action movie the protagonists or antagonists plotting simultaneous attacks in different locations? How many of those do you think happen with 0 time in-between?

Really?
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because all at once is the same as saying all at the same time...

Which isn't the same as all at once, as I showed with my examples. It also doesn't mean with 0 time in-between, as I also showed above. It just means close enough together to be considered "at the same time."

I'm not saying they count as a single hit. I'm saying the damage is applied at one time, as so you cannot rule which damage reduces the pc to 0 hp, the total amount does.

It isn't applied at the same time. It's applied 1d4+1 at a time until all d4s have been rolled. If the player wants to total the damage and deduct it all at once, that's okay, but that doesn't mean that it's applied all at once.

If they don't count as a single hit, then they are discreet instances of damage even if they are simultaneous. That triggers the death save with each discreet instance of damage.

For the sake of clarity, I am debating this from the position of when the spell reduces the pc to 0 hp, not if the pc is already at 0 hp.

We get that. We aren't stupid and you've been quite clear about that. The problem is that you are conflating "all at once" with "simultaneous" and "simultaneous" with "0 time at all in-between events." Neither of those mean the other.

FWIW, my original post agreed with the OP if the pc is already at 0 hp. We don't play it that way because it is cheesy and just rule it as one failed death save, not multiple.

I'm still not sure how I will play it. It has not yet come up in my game for us to even think about, but I'm certain that all 4 of my players will agree with everyone here(excepting you) and agree that it should as written cause multiple death save failures.

If you are only concerned when the pc is already at 0 hp, then there is nothing to discuss.

I mean, there's literally no difference. If as written it causes 3 death save failures for 3 missiles, then it does the same when you are not at 0, but can be bought to 0 with few missiles than hit you. This again is a hole in the rules and needs a DM ruling to figure out how to determine which missiles hit first. And again, simultaneous =/= here in the real world mean 0 amount of time has occurred in-between instances. So it doesn't mean that in the game, either.

 

[MarkB]

We get that. We aren't stupid and you've been quite clear about that. The problem is that you are conflating "all at once" with "simultaneous" and "simultaneous" with "0 time at all in-between events." Neither of those mean the other.

Wait, what?

 

[Charlaquin]

And now I want to do the survey to see if peoples' opinions on the movie relate to their ruling on MM and concentration/death saves.

I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a correlation, but it would likely be an indirect one.

 

[Guest 7037866]

I can absolutely determine an order. I am the DM and fully capable of making a ruling to cover a hole in the rules.

Zen moment: there is no hole.

 

[Stalker0]

Maybe, but if the magic missile spell can be used to hit three different targets, each missile is a separate source of damage.

I would agree, which seems to be backed up by both sage advice and BG3 (not that those are official but it is corroborating evidence)

 

[Maxperson]

Wait, what?

All at once is rolling 8d6 all at once for fireball. Simultaneous is rolling 1d4+1 + 1d4+1 + 1d4+1 for three magic missiles that are not happening all at once. They happen simultaneously, but with a very small amount of time in-between hits. Even here in the real world things happen "simultaneously" all the time that aren't all in the same instant with 0 time in-between.

 

[Maxperson]

Zen moment: there is no hole.

I thought there was no spoon.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

Yup. Three different Missiles. I rarely play Spellcasting BGs, but if I did, and that villain really hated a particular PC, he might MM them when they're down - but it's unlikely. Not only do I not enjoy killing PCs, but those MM would probably better be served trying to knock a different PC down before that PC kills my villain (even if that doesn't work out for him).