D&D General 0 HP Magic Missile = Death?

[Maxperson]

You can't, because of the whole "hit simultaneously" thing. There's no time between one hit and another in which to decide to abort, even if it were possible to abort an individual missile.

Yep. In BG3 you have to pick the targets, including the same target more than once, before damage is rolled. Then you see each missile do separate damage, including those who hit the same target. Unlike say a fireball which hits everyone for a single amount of damage.

 

[MarkB]

Yep. In BG3 you have to pick the targets, including the same target more than once, before damage is rolled. Then you see each missile do separate damage, including those who hit the same target. Unlike say a fireball which hits everyone for a single amount of damage.

Yeah, they're still separate hits for purposes of concentration and death saves. Whether they occur simultaneously or sequentially has no bearing on that.

 

[Guest 7037866]

Separate is separate. You keep conflating simultaneous with being a single source and there is nothing to say or imply that. As I said, fireball doesn't specify that all of its dice hit simultaneously, because it's a single source of damage and doesn't have to. Your argument about it specifying simultaneous hits is stronger as an argument for what we are saying, than what you are saying.

Single source or separate doesn't matter. You're missing that the damage happens all at the same time. So, the PC is only taking damage once, the total of all the missle that hit.

Anyway, feel free to keep being the lone voice arguing against both RAW and everyone else, including the guy who designed the game.

Your interpretation maybe, which doesn't follow the text. Frankly, as I said upthread, just as many people disagree with JC about all sorts of things as agree with him.

 

[Guest 7037866]

Yeah, they're still separate hits for purposes of concentration and death saves. Whether they occur simultaneously or sequentially has no bearing on that.

In this case it does, as my example upthread demonstrates.

You can't apply the rule for taking damage at 0 hp if you are above 0 hp when all the damage is taken at the same time. Which missile "reduces the pc to 0 hp?" You can't know unless you abritrarily place an order on the missile hits, which flies in the face of them happening simulataneously.

 

[Maxperson]

Single source or separate doesn't matter. You're missing that the damage happens all at the same time. So, the PC is only taking damage once, the total of all the missle that hit.

Same time is irrelevant. Only separate or same source of damage is relevant. You are arguing an irrelevancy. Unless you can show were in RAW it explicitly says simultaneous = all one source of damage, you are wrong about RAW backing you up here. For your argument to be RAW, it has to be explicitly written.

On the other hand, we CAN show where magic missile creates different sources of damage and those were bolded for you. But you'd rather ignore what is written to argue your irrelevancy than admit that you are wrong here.

Simultaneous is only relevant if you can show where it is written that simultaneous = single source of damage.

Your interpretation maybe, which doesn't follow the text. Frankly, as I said upthread, just as many people disagree with JC about all sorts of things as agree with him.

Mine, everyone else but yours, the lead game designer, etc.

 

[MarkB]

In this case it does, as my example upthread demonstrates.

You can't apply the rule for taking damage at 0 hp if you are above 0 hp when all the damage is taken at the same time. Which missile "reduces the pc to 0 hp?" You can't know unless you abritrarily place an order on the missile hits, which flies in the face of them happening simulataneously.

The entire combat system is based on playing things out in turn that are actually happening simultaneously. Choosing one die roll is no more arbitrary than the rest of it.

 

[Maxperson]

In this case it does, as my example upthread demonstrates.

You can't apply the rule for taking damage at 0 hp if you are above 0 hp when all the damage is taken at the same time. Which missile "reduces the pc to 0 hp?" You can't know unless you abritrarily place an order on the missile hits, which flies in the face of them happening simulataneously.

Actually, your example simply shows the need for a rulings over rules(One of the foundations of 5e) moment. Since we have different sources of damage causing simultaneous damage, the DM needs to enact a ruling to cover that gap in the rules. These gaps in the rules are all over the place in 5e in order to cause DMs to make rulings. The existence of a gap doesn't make you right.

In my case I'd rule that I will roll 1 die at a time so we will know which missile drops the target to 0. That seems to me to be the only fair way to do it.

 

[Guest 7037866]

Same time is irrelevant. Only separate or same source of damage is relevant. You are arguing an irrelevancy. Unless you can show were in RAW it explicitly says simultaneous = all one source of damage, you are wrong about RAW backing you up here. For your argument to be RAW, it has to be explicitly written.

Why do you keep harping on seprate sources of damage? Nothing explicitly states in the rules that each time you take damage at 0 hp you suffer an auto failed death save. As I pointed out upthread, the rule just says you take one if you take damage. Well, you take damage from the magic missiles, so you take a failed death save.

Simultaneous's meaning is all at once. We know that because that is what the word means. RAW doesn't need to define in game terms what every word in the text means...

On the other hand, we CAN show where magic missile creates different sources of damage and those were bolded for you. But you'd rather ignore what is written to argue your irrelevancy than admit that you are wrong here.

I ignore them because they are irrelevant.

Simultaneous is only relevant if you can show where it is written that simultaneous = single source of damage.

Again, source of damage doesn't matter so I don't need to show this.

The entire combat system is based on playing things out in turn that are actually happening simultaneously. Choosing one die roll is no more arbitrary than the rest of it.

Not quite. Combat happens in turns. Actions are determined by what happens prior in the round or even turn. But the spell is both instantaneous and damage occurs simultaneously, so there is no way to determine the order of damage done by individual missiles, and damage is a total.

Actually, your example simply shows the need for a rulings over rules(One of the foundations of 5e) moment. Since we have different sources of damage causing simultaneous damage, the DM needs to enact a ruling to cover that gap in the rules. These gaps in the rules are all over the place in 5e in order to cause DMs to make rulings. The existence of a gap doesn't make you right.

In my case I'd rule that I will roll 1 die at a time so we will know which missile drops the target to 0. That seems to me to be the only fair way to do it.

There is no need for a ruling when the text specifies simultaneous. There is no gap.

The fair way to do it is to apply the damage all at once, because that is how it happens.

 

[Maxperson]

Why do you keep harping on seprate sources of damage? Nothing explicitly states in the rules that each time you take damage at 0 hp you suffer an auto failed death save. As I pointed out upthread, the rule just says you take one if you take damage. Well, you take damage from the magic missiles, so you take a failed death save.

Um. Because each separate source is a separate instance of, "each time you take damage."

Simultaneous's meaning is all at once. We know that because that is what the word means. RAW doesn't need to define in game terms what every word in the text means...

No. It does not mean all at once. It only means at the same time. If I go to a wall and hit it with a molitov cocktail, it takes that damage all at once. If I have 5 people throw 5 of them all at the same time, it takes 5 different instances of damage simultaneously. All of the damage is not one single instance of damage.

If you get hit by a rocket launcher, that's all damage at once. If you get shot simultaneously by 10 different bullets, that's 10 separate instances of damage hitting you simultaneously.

If you, me, @Oofta and @Paul Farquhar all rolled a d6 at the same time, we each separately rolled 1d6 simultaneously. If you roll 4d6 at the same time, you've rolled 4d6 all at once.

Simultaneously =/= all at once.

 

[MarkB]

Why do you keep harping on seprate sources of damage? Nothing explicitly states in the rules that each time you take damage at 0 hp you suffer an auto failed death save. As I pointed out upthread, the rule just says you take one if you take damage. Well, you take damage from the magic missiles, so you take a failed death save.

Why does it matter whether they're simultaneous or not? Where in the rules does it ever state that simultaneous attacks count as a single hit while sequential attacks are separate?

there is no way to determine the order of damage done by individual missiles,

This is true.

and damage is a total.

This does not follow from your previous statement.