D&D 5E 06/06 Q&A : Safe Rest Locations, Regaining Spell Slots and Cantrip Balance

[Majoru Oakheart]

Further, I think the idea is completely unnecessary. There's already ways of making resting in dungeons dangerous, the easiest of those is the possibility that the party will be ambushed at night. Capping the hp that can be regained by resting in such situations is an annoying rule that really adds nothing to the game but takes a lot away. They need to abandon this terrible idea.

I disagree. Resting at night generally proves to be not dangerous at all in most situations. You fight until you are at half health and spells. Then you rest for the night knowing you have the second half of your spells and hp to survive anything that would attack you at night. Then you wake up with full HP and spells again.

This is the way my games have gone for the longest time(basically every game post 2e). Even if you didn't regain ALL your hp from sleeping, healing spells were powerful enough that you'd just use your leftover spells before you went to sleep to heal everyone to full.

I suspect people might be a little less likely to rest in the middle of the dungeon if there was the risk of damage that didn't heal from anything that attacked you in the middle of the night.

Whether you like the idea of people sleeping in dungeons is another story all together. If you like that idea, this will definitely discourage it.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I disagree. Resting at night generally proves to be not dangerous at all in most situations. You fight until you are at half health and spells. Then you rest for the night knowing you have the second half of your spells and hp to survive anything that would attack you at night. Then you wake up with full HP and spells again.

This is the way my games have gone for the longest time(basically every game post 2e). Even if you didn't regain ALL your hp from sleeping, healing spells were powerful enough that you'd just use your leftover spells before you went to sleep to heal everyone to full.

I suspect people might be a little less likely to rest in the middle of the dungeon if there was the risk of damage that didn't heal from anything that attacked you in the middle of the night.

Whether you like the idea of people sleeping in dungeons is another story all together. If you like that idea, this will definitely discourage it.

Actually, capping the amount of hp people can regain from resting only encourages them to do this kind of thing. The party is more likely to go further during the day and spend more of their resources if they think they can get them all back when they rest. When they know that they can't however, and that they can only get the top half of their hp back from magic, they're going to be much more paranoid about their magical resources. This rule takes the 5 minute workday problem and greatly exacerbates it.

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

Actually, capping the amount of hp people can regain from resting only encourages them to do this kind of thing. The party is more likely to go further during the day and spend more of their resources if they think they can get them all back when they rest. When they know that they can't however, and that they can only get the top half of their hp back from magic, they're going to be much more paranoid about their magical resources. This rule takes the 5 minute workday problem and greatly exacerbates it.

Honestly, I can't predict what effect it'll have on the 5MWD.

Imagine it this way: You go through an encounter...you use up one spell and some people take damage but no one is below half. You know if you rest for the night ALL you will get back is the spell...so resting becomes less useful. Might as well continue until you are below half health so resting does something useful for you.

On the other hand, I think what it will ACTUALLY do is just make groups INSIST on going back to town for every rest. Your choices are: 1. Continue on and possibly die due to low HP, 2. Rest in the dungeon and don't get any HP back or 3. Go back to town and get full HP back. Groups that want to optimize their chances will choose option 3 unless there is a compelling reason not to.

My guess is that the 5MWD will stay exactly the same but groups won't just retreat from the dungeon and rest in the nearest safe-ish place. They will instead retreat from the dungeon and travel a week back to town and then come back. However, I think groups that were on the edge regarding the 5MWD will actually adventure longer. Those are the groups whose players chose to rest rather than continue only because they felt there was no REAL penalty for resting for the night. When "resting for the night" means a 2 week long trip to the nearest town and back it might be JUST enough to nudge them into continuing on the adventure.

 

[Falling Icicle]

I suspect that most parties will make use of things like Rope Trick and Leomund's Secure Shelter to avoid the penalty altogether. The biggest problem I have with the idea is that the only ones that are really punished by it are non-spellcasters.

 

[keterys]

The benchmark for cantrips is sensible, but it does not obviously reflect the current test package.

I agree up to this point - cantrip damage is too low in the current packet to match 2/3 to 3/4, and is actually closer to 1/2.

Lance of Faith 1d8 (scaling)
Ray of Frost 1d8 (scaling) + reduced speed

The reduced speed is almost negligible. I have seen it matter exactly once in 8 levels of play. It certainly doesn't impact return fire from a bow. You're also ignoring range (very much in the bow's favor), which actually could impact the comparison more (an extra round of fire).

Shortbow (simple weapon) 1d6 + dex bonus
Longbow (martial weapon) 1d8 + dex bonus

You're missing (scaling) from deadly strike, as well as enhancement, as well as feats, nevermind class features ("whirlwind", combat dice). You could technically also look at a heavy crossbow if you're ignoring the multi-target advantages of level and would rather focus on single target damage. Or dual-wield thrown weapons if you have a different objection, which is the highest theoretical damage, but doesn't work well in actuality.

For example, at 1st level a PC would be doing 4.5 damage instead of 8.5

At 5th level, a PC would be looking at 9 compared to 16 (2d10 + 4 Dex + 1 Enh), or more (+2, weapon mastery, other options as mentioned, etc).

And the gap sticks around there as you go. It actually goes a bit nuts if the archer is firing at multiple targets instead.

 

[I'm A Banana]

I suspect that most parties will make use of things like Rope Trick and Leomund's Secure Shelter to avoid the penalty altogether. The biggest problem I have with the idea is that the only ones that are really punished by it are non-spellcasters.

Except for all those characters who know how to survive in the wilderness like soldiers and rangers and barbarians and....

Rope Trick is an alternative to knowing how to make camp, and one that should cost resources (ritual-style) to do.

 

[Sword of Spirit]

Since it's my hobby-horse for today, I'll mention that lance of faith invalidates an iconic moderate Strength mace-wielding cleric--even with a cleric's minor Deadly Strike abilities.

An iconic cleric with a Strength of 10-14 ought to always do better with a mace than a cantrip. Maybe with an 18 Wisdom and a Strength of 10 he could be comparable to a Wisdom 16 mace-wielder, but any better than that and there's no reason to play an iconic cleric.

Like my laser clerics. Also like to be able to play an iconic mace and shield-cleric without having to take steroids or feeling like a complete idiot for playing invalid* combination.

* I don't consider "un-optimized" invalid. I consider obviously underpowered compared to equally available choices to be invalid.

 

[Obryn]

It's like they're aware of the problems with their game, but doubling down and calling them "features."

Sometimes I just don't know why I'm keeping up on this stuff.

-O

 

[Falling Icicle]

Since it's my hobby-horse for today, I'll mention that lance of faith invalidates an iconic moderate Strength mace-wielding cleric--even with a cleric's minor Deadly Strike abilities.

An iconic cleric with a Strength of 10-14 ought to always do better with a mace than a cantrip.

Why? Why should one option be objectively better than the other? Not everyone wants to be a Knight-Templar-style "iconic" cleric. IMO, both options should be equally valid; one shouldn't be obviously superior to the other.

Also, since inflict wounds is a swift spell that let's you make a melee attack but not use a cantrip on the same turn, melee clerics are already far superior to those that use LoF.

 

[Ichneumon]

Rest is something that could be on a dial, or toggle. One option is to have it work the same way anywhere, and another is to have it work fully in safe places and not so fully in others.