1 PC = 1 elite monster?

[Kerrick]

A few of us have been having a lively discussion on another forum about the relative power levels of PCs and monsters, and we can't seem to agree, based on the evidence so far presented, so I thought I'd ask right out:

Does 1 PC = 1 standard monster, or does 1 PC = 1 elite?

By the former line of thought...

4 minions = 1 PC
1 standard monster = 1 PC
1 elite = 2 PCs
1 boss = 4 PCs

(This is garnered from various playtest reports - a group of ~20 goblins against a 5-person party, and the two elite bulettes vs. the 4 PCs. We know for sure that 1 elite = 2 standard.)

By the second line of thought:

8 minions = 1 PC
2 standard monsters = 1 PC
1 elite = 1 PC
1 boss = 2 PCs

And while I'm here, is there a "henchman"-type power level between "standard" and "minion"? There seems to be a huge gap there...

 

[GreatLemur]

Have we seen anything so far that suggests the second formula? I can't really see where that one's coming from.

 

[Stormtalon]

Well, at least per the interview with the Beholder, it's a "Solo" (read: boss) type monster that's fully capable of taking on an entire party of adventurers by itself, which shoots down the 2nd list's "Boss=2pcs" idea. I also believe in the Death Knight article they mentioned it's an Elite monster, equal to two PCs. Finally, they've stated that the baseline standard is 1 monster per character -- which most folks would take to mean standard monsters, as minions are defined as weaker than normal, and elites stronger.

 

[A'koss]

Well, at least per the interview with the Beholder, it's a "Solo" (read: boss) type monster that's fully capable of taking on an entire party of adventurers by itself, which shoots down the 2nd list's "Boss=2pcs" idea. I also believe in the Death Knight article they mentioned it's an Elite monster, equal to two PCs. Finally, they've stated that the baseline standard is 1 monster per character -- which most folks would take to mean standard monsters, as minions are defined as weaker than normal, and elites stronger.

Yup, that's basically it. To put it succinctly...

4 Minion Monsters per PC.
1 Standard Monster per PC.
1 Elite Monster per 2 PCs.
1 Solo Monster per ~5 PCs.

Now keep in mind this is about creating a standard encounter, a standard monster is not a powerful as any single PC - just that it's an appropriate challenge for his level.

 

[Lackhand]

Beholder as solo monster doesn't immediately imply that it's a challenge for the whole party: It could be intended to be used with terrain and traps making up the other challenge slots.

That doesn't mean that it *isn't* going to be a challenge for the whole party, just that there's room for argument either way, as far as I can see

 

[A'koss]

Beholder as solo monster doesn't immediately imply that it's a challenge for the whole party: It could be intended to be used with terrain and traps making up the other challenge slots.

That doesn't mean that it *isn't* going to be a challenge for the whole party, just that there's room for argument either way, as far as I can see

Actually, WotC has said that solo monsters are designed to tackle entire parties (of that level). However there's no reason you can add additional traps (which fill monster slots in 4e) to make it an extra-tough encounter or if you have a larger than normal party and so on...

 

[Lackhand]

Actually, WotC has said that solo monsters are designed to tackle entire parties (of that level). However there's no reason you can add additional traps (which fill monster slots in 4e) to make it an extra-tough encounter or if you have a larger than normal party and so on...

Oh, okay, must have missed that. Nevermind!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Howdy A'koss!

Yup, that's basically it. To put it succinctly...

4 Minion Monsters per PC.
1 Standard Monster per PC.
1 Elite Monster per 2 PCs.
1 Solo Monster per ~5 PCs.

Now keep in mind this is about creating a standard encounter, a standard monster is not a powerful as any single PC - just that it's an appropriate challenge for his level.

Exactly my point (for the record I am the one having the discussion with kerrick in another forum, and I believe the latter stated designations are correct).

The 1 Standard Monster per PC (as you attest) is just to determine an appropriate challenge. Not to determine if its as powerful as a PC of the same level, which would be stupid because then your PCs would all be dead within a few encounters.

In all sources so far its either been stated (in a roundabout way) that Elites are equal to PCs. Now since 1 Elite is an appropriate challenge for 2 PCs it seems logical to expect:

8 Minions = 1 PC
2 Standard Monsters = 1 PC
1 Elite = 1 PC
1 Solo = 2 PCs (or 2.5?)

I also think that monsters with Class Levels will automatically be classified as Elites.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Beholder as solo monster doesn't immediately imply that it's a challenge for the whole party: It could be intended to be used with terrain and traps making up the other challenge slots.

That doesn't mean that it *isn't* going to be a challenge for the whole party, just that there's room for argument either way, as far as I can see

Beholders can do that because they're smart. I'm sure there are going to be a fair number of not-too-bright monsters that can nonetheless solo a party. (In that case, the party gets a big benefit from outsmarting it.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Yup, that's basically it. To put it succinctly...

4 Minion Monsters per PC.
1 Standard Monster per PC.
1 Elite Monster per 2 PCs.
1 Solo Monster per ~5 PCs.

Now keep in mind this is about creating a standard encounter, a standard monster is not a powerful as any single PC - just that it's an appropriate challenge for his level.

That's a good point. I am not sure about the exact ratios, but it makes sense that the "average" encounter is not always the 3.x encounter of EL = PL +4 encounter. But I guess with the reduced effects of attrition thanks to per encounter and at will abilities, EL = PL is probably also not the appropriate equivalent.