11th Century Europe D&D Campaign

[Mournblade94]

Andor, I fail to see why any of that needs rules. Why not just let the narrative take care of it?

I said if you WANTED a simulation you would most likely want rules. Otherwise we go to narrative or storytelling with a combat system attached. That is exactly what you would get with 4e, which very well may be what the original poster watns.

I never watched Buffy (though my wife swears I should watch it even though I hated the movie) but buffy is cinematic 20th century (I feel I can make this judgement without watching a full episode). If you played 4e it would be Cinematic 11th century. It would be a poor reflection both on how combat was really fought, and how life was actually lived.

From what I have seen of Buffy, no one would say "that is how fights were done in the 20th century." If you want to run the Dark Ages with cinematic fights go ahead and use 4e. if you want a system that models life in any period of history (which Scribble never said he ACTUALLY wanted to do) you would need a system better for simulation. At the very least you would need a more robust skill system.

There are people that like when they can apply rules to model actions not directly related to the core of the game. Otherwise all you would ever have is a bunch of combat systems with some random RPG name attached.

 

[ferratus]

Well, I've never seen an RPG system that really shows how people lived and fought in the 11th century. Unless of course you know of a system that allows skilled and experienced fighters to be killed with a single lucky shot or die from a lingering infection. Nor do I think the original poster wants to do a game in which most of the time is spent negotiating with enemies, inspecting landholdings, rolling dice for weather patterns and crop yields, crafting items, and figuring out what fine to give to little Bert for unduly raising a hue and cry. I think the ship of "portraying things realistically" pretty much sails as soon as you do an adventure RPG.

But seriously though, he already said he is going to have magic, and that he wanted to play 4e. There are many stories with mythological resonance: The Song of Roland, The Adventures of Robin Hood, the numerous accounts of saintly miracles, or occult powers ascribed to learned men such as Sylvester II, Albert Magnus or Roger Bacon. It isn't like there isn't chronicles of supernatural or martially superhuman heroic legends that can't be interwoven into the 11th century.

I don't think all of those stories are historical in scenery only. Nor as Andor says "have all the historical feel of "Robin Hood: Men in tights." I think 4e works just fine for that type of medieval heroic legend.

 

[Mournblade94]

Well, I've never seen an RPG system that really shows how people lived and fought in the 11th century. Unless of course you know of a system that allows skilled and experienced fighters to be killed with a single lucky shot or die from a lingering infection. Nor do I think the original poster wants to do a game in which most of the time is spent negotiating with enemies, inspecting landholdings, rolling dice for weather patterns and crop yields, crafting items, and figuring out what fine to give to little Bert for unduly raising a hue and cry. I think the ship of "portraying things realistically" pretty much sails as soon as you do an adventure RPG.

But seriously though, he already said he is going to have magic, and that he wanted to play 4e. There are many stories with mythological resonance: The Song of Roland, The Adventures of Robin Hood, the numerous accounts of saintly miracles, or occult powers ascribed to learned men such as Sylvester II, Albert Magnus or Roger Bacon. It isn't like there isn't chronicles of supernatural or martially superhuman heroic legends that can't be interwoven into the 11th century.

I don't think all of those stories are historical in scenery only. Nor as Andor says "have all the historical feel of "Robin Hood: Men in tights." I think 4e works just fine for that type of medieval heroic legend.

Nor did I dispute anything you said. If you were to search for a system that best modeled that life, 4e is not it. There are no perfect systems, at best there are barely adequate systems like HERO for those purposes. My argument was simply 4e is not the best one to use. It was only in response to a query.

 

[Jhaelen]

I have to admit I'm a bit sceptical if this will really work with 4E. What's left of the game after throwing everything out that doesn't fit?

If they hadn't already been mentioned, I'd also recommended either Pendragon or Ars Magica.

I really like 4E, but I like it because it's high fantasy with a cinematic feel. Will it still be fun after removing (most of) the non-humans and (most of the) magic?

I guess you could use 4E to create the rpg equivalent of the movie 'A Knight's Tale'. Is that what you're looking for?

 

[ferratus]

Grr... but... but... I've pretty much proven that medieval or stories about medieval times have always had cinematic and flashy descriptions of combat...

*sigh* Alright forget it.

http://www.enworld.org/newsimage/flowchart_l.jpg"

 

[ferratus]

*double post*

 

[Scribble]

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the non human races. A teifling for example would need to be more human looking, but would otherwise fit right in. Merlin himself was supposed to be half-demon remember. Likewise half-elves make perfect sense as changelings. Maybe halflings are pictish woad warriors, and half-orcs as brutish viking raiders. Just shift the images 4 pts towards human and call it good.

Hrmm interesting thought. I know I want to keep them "somewhat" still in the game, just not prominent.

Maybe I will give them a new paint job and keep some of them in. I think though, if a player decides to make a non human they will have to keep their identity as hidden as possible.

I'd need some more information before I'd give advice.

You said that there would be some magic, but I'm unsure of these aspects:

1) Is there going to be a feywilde/avalon or shadowfell/purgatory/sheol/hades? Is there a hell? Will you be following Christian Cosmology, Celtic Cosmology, or is it going to be a strictly physical universe?

Yes?

A more detailed answer is harder to give as I'm sort of the type of DM that goes with (deal with it when I get to it.)

In theory I want places like the feywilde and such to exist? Just not sure how/if I'll use them yet.

2) Is magic rare, weak or hidden?

All of the above kind of?

I want magic to be mostly in the form of Artifacts and Rituals. (The game terms.)

Thats the main reason for cutting the power sources down to martial only. Doing something actually physically impossible, but cinematically cool? Fine... Commonly able to creat a giant fireball... doesn't really fit what I'm going for.

3) Are there monsters? .

Yes- but again like magic it's rare, and not seen that often. (Although talked about in many superstitions and such.)

I think obviously the PCs will have interactions with monsters on a far more common base then the average person.

Use the inherent bonus from the CB when building characters, this will fix the math issues and allow for some nice rare magic artefacts to be introduced.

I forgot they added those... They're just bonuses the CB applies in place of magic items correct?

Thats kind of the plan... The "Magic Items" of this campaign would be artifacts modeled on artifacts in the real world.

I'd also allow - at DM discretion for each one - multiclass feats for classes in other power sources, but make them roleplay for it; I mean is they want to cast a wizards spell they will have to track down an mage to learn from and they might get some religious inquisitors on their case. Also if they start displaying miracle like powers expect some attention from nobles and the church.

Not sure I want a lot of the other power sources popping up... Even in the form of multiclass feats.

That said I'm also not the type of DM that feels that once I "ban" something from the game it's gone for good. If someone really wants to do something, and has a cool idea for a character, they can talk to me about it.

 

[Mournblade94]

Grr... but... but... I've pretty much proven that medieval or stories about medieval times have always had cinematic and flashy descriptions of combat...

*sigh* Alright forget it.

http://www.enworld.org/newsimage/flowchart_l.jpg"

Yes, you did that well. That in itself does not make 4e the best system for historical purposes, that's all. No need for the flow chart. Because someone might point out that 4e is not the BEST for somethign does not mean they are trying to start an edition war.

It is OK to relax

 

[Andor]

As to crafting I've been pondering allowing my PCs the ability to take up Background skills after 1st level, but they have to in-game time doing so. So if someone wanted to become a blacksmith they could pick that at first level - they apprenticed somewhere - or they could learn the trade by spending a couple of months training and they would need access to a forge.

This is kind of why you want a different system. 4e has a language system, but it's not designed for a world with dozens of local dialects. You'd actually be better off with a system that ignored languages entirely.

If you want crafting at all, it's helpful to have a system for it.

OTOH I'd be the first to argue against the value of delving too deeply into the details of maintencence and upkeep. I have a head full of appallingly useless details of the care and upkeep of medieval technology and even I would be bored to tears if it came up too often in gameplay.

So, here's what I suggest. Any given bit of kit (Armour, weapon, Horse, whatever) has an upkeep cost equal to 1/20th of it's initial cost each month. If the upkeep cost isn't met, the item fails on a roll of 1 (Armour strap snaps, sword bends, horse goes lame) and must be repaired at a cost of twice the unmet upkeep cost. If a characters background or ingame training indicates an apprentice level skill in an appropriate craft (squire, blacksmith, farrier) unkeep costs are halved. Journeyman negates upkeep costs. Master level skill can perform repairs for free and negate upkeep costs for the whole party.

 

[Scribble]

But seriously though, he already said he is going to have magic, and that he wanted to play 4e. There are many stories with mythological resonance: The Song of Roland, The Adventures of Robin Hood, the numerous accounts of saintly miracles, or occult powers ascribed to learned men such as Sylvester II, Albert Magnus or Roger Bacon. It isn't like there isn't chronicles of supernatural or martially superhuman heroic legends that can't be interwoven into the 11th century.

Thats kind of along the lines I'm going for... The 11th century Europe as depicted in most movies or fiction books- Not the 11th century Europe as depicted in my college history books.

Nor did I dispute anything you said. If you were to search for a system that best modeled that life, 4e is not it. There are no perfect systems, at best there are barely adequate systems like HERO for those purposes. My argument was simply 4e is not the best one to use. It was only in response to a query.

Maybe not? But it's the one I want to try it with.

In response to the simulation arguments.

1. I'm not a simulationist. In fact I find simulationist games tend to actually break my imagination too much.

2. As stated above I'm looking to capture the romanticized 11th century of movies/tv and fiction, rather then that of history textbooks.

LIke if you watched the Tudors... It's a general depiction of the 16th century but everyone is all hot with good teeth n stuff.

I have to admit I'm a bit sceptical if this will really work with 4E. What's left of the game after throwing everything out that doesn't fit?

I really like 4E, but I like it because it's high fantasy with a cinematic feel. Will it still be fun after removing (most of) the non-humans and (most of the) magic?

I don't know if it will work. If it doesn't it doesn't- lesson learned. Right now though, it seems interesting to me.

I guess you could use 4E to create the rpg equivalent of the movie 'A Knight's Tale'. Is that what you're looking for?

Kind of... Pretty much any "pseudo historical" depiction of the 11th century.