1421: The Year China Discovered...

[Vraille Darkfang]

Hey!

"Why don't we ever get credit for discovering America?" Any Native American Tribe.

We beat all you by &^%$*#! 20,000 years & we get squat! (I've been to a few reservations, excluding those few with a popular Casino, they do, indeed have squat. If they're lucky).

How about we just admit the Americans discovered America first. As for proof. They were here as witnesses to every one else who claimed to be 'first'.

Could be fun. Tasked by human king to colonize new land. Get there, get off the boat....

Elf stands there: "We need to dicuss the defintion of 'Unihabited'. The word seems to differ between Common & Elven. It is similar to the difference between how 'Get the %$#@*% Out' translates into elven. In elven it is pronounced 'Meteor Swarm'".

 

[Desdichado]

Hey!

"Why don't we ever get credit for discovering America?" Any Native American Tribe.

We beat all you by &^%$*#! 20,000 years & we get squat! (I've been to a few reservations, excluding those few with a popular Casino, they do, indeed have squat. If they're lucky).

How about we just admit the Americans discovered America first. As for proof. They were here as witnesses to every one else who claimed to be 'first'.

That idea is seriously under attack these days too, actually. And 20,000 years? Clovis isn't that old.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/TECH/science/11/17/carolina.dig/index.html

 

[gizmo33]

Elf stands there: "We need to dicuss the defintion of 'Unihabited'. The word seems to differ between Common & Elven. It is similar to the difference between how 'Get the %$#@*% Out' translates into elven. In elven it is pronounced 'Meteor Swarm'".

Human: Well Mr. Fancypants Elf, in my land it's the custom to not bathe for months at a time. So as we stand here discussing the finer points of elven grammar, your body is failing it's save vs. dozens of Contagion spells. In a few scant years I imagine this land will be largely depopulated. Now if you'll excuse me I have some polluting and enslaving to do.

 

[Krypter]

There's a debunking of this fusang postulate here: http://www.kenspy.com/Menzies/

Colour me unimpressed by the book. There's a lot more historical and archaeological evidence to support the silly claim that the Egyptian Pharaohs won every single battle they ever fought. Imperial cultures tend to, how shall I put it delicately, "make stuff up?" The Chinese may have sent a few ships here and there following the southeast Asian coastline, but not across the Pacific to America. It's wishful thinking by people who don't like (modern) Americans and the West in general, and hope to discredit them somehow by stomping on their (real) accomplishments.

Still, as a fantasy it's a cool idea, and I've read a good design for a magical-steam-age Fusang that bridges the Pacific and interacts with Native American tribes. Hmm, I wonder, is there a good Alternate History RPG out there? I've seen some of the GURPS stuff and it looked perfect for this kind of thing.

 

[fusangite]

One account from the 5th century which uses a word latter identified consistantly with Japan?

Nope. The Fusang story is likely totally apocryphal. The evidence comes from the archaeological record on the northwest coast like the finding of metal tools of Chinese manufacture at a site on the Olympic peninsula near Seattle (a whole village was buried under a mudslide and well preserved). Similarly, one of the Gitksan-Wetsuweten royal heirlooms is a Sung dynasty Chinese coin. It is very unlikely that the Chinese reached the northwest coast prior to the 9th century, however. But these finds are well discussed in academic journals and in no way rely on Chinese documentary sources.

I'm a fan of the Fusang story because "British Columbia" is a lame name. I would much rather use the Chinese name for my province of origin than the vastly over-used and unoriginal references to the European age of discovery. As was the case with Europeans and the Antilles and Brazil, North America's West Coast got its name from the Chinese centuries before they actually discovered it.

 

[gizmo33]

Imperial cultures tend to, how shall I put it delicately, "make stuff up?"

Yes, and since I live in one I can verify this from first hand experience. However, we're not all bad.

The Chinese may have sent a few ships here and there following the southeast Asian coastline, but not across the Pacific to America.

IMO you're on firmer ground saying what you know, which is "the evidence is not convincing", rather than making any definite statement. Lack of evidence doesn't constitute proof of the negative.

It's wishful thinking by people who don't like (modern) Americans and the West in general, and hope to discredit them somehow by stomping on their (real) accomplishments.

IMO based on what I've seen in this thread, there's no point in trying to ascribe motive to people who are interested in some theory or another. I see no logical connection between a theory about a few Chinese ships making contact with some people and the idea that someone else's accomplishments are being discredited. I find the subject of the Chinese exploration of America interesting, but I don't hate modern Americans (unless I'm in traffic or watching TV). That being said, I think it is important to be honest and open about sources and evidence, and to that end I think people are well-served by your posting of counter-arguments. IMO it pretty much speaks for itself.

 

[fusangite]

It's wishful thinking by people who don't like (modern) Americans and the West in general, and hope to discredit them somehow by stomping on their (real) accomplishments.

Just a note: Gavin Menzies is a retired officer of the British navy. I don't think he has too much of a problem with the West.

 

[Desdichado]

Just a note: Gavin Menzies is a retired officer of the British navy. I don't think he has too much of a problem with the West.

That doesn't mean much. Most of the harshest criticism of Western culture comes from within.

Most of the apologetic backswing towards denigrating it and promoting other cultures too.

 

[gizmo33]

Most of the apologetic backswing towards denigrating it and promoting other cultures too.

Did I miss the part of the post where the book calls Western people morons? My last post made the assumption that you all were making this part up, but I'll take that part back if you connect the dots for me between a chinese boat sailing to the West coast in 1421 and Western civilization being lame.

 

[Desdichado]

Did I miss the part of the post where the book calls Western people morons? My last post made the assumption that you all were making this part up, but I'll take that part back if you connect the dots for me between a chinese boat sailing to the West coast in 1421 and Western civilization being lame.

I haven't the foggiest idea. I wasn't really making any statement about what the book claims, merely that the fact that the author is British doesn't necessarily mean he's a champion of Western culture.