+1d6 sneak attack worth a feat (& vice versa)?

[Li Shenron]

Balance-wise I think sneak attack is just perfect to me made into a feat, +1d6 each time you take the feat. I would also probably limit it to not more than half your BAB.

Otherwise, if you allow it with no other requisite, it kind of makes the signature feature of Rogues available to everyone, which may not be very nice in a way. A possibility to keep this limited could be to require that the character already has the sneak attack ability: for example you could add that you can take such a feat one time per each +1d6 you already have from a class ability, this way it will be useful for multiclass Rogues.

Letting a Rogue give up a +1d6 in sneak attack for any feat would be very popular IMO, but only at high levels.

However if some players in our group wanted to switch feats and sneak attacks I would probably go easy and allow it straight away with no problems

 

[Darklone]

PlaneSailings houserule for Dirty Fighting was a +1d6 sneak attack damage. I use it since a long time as well and as long as you don't allow it to be taken several times, it's ok.

 

[Greatwyrm]

I think there's been some misconceptions about the way this works. When you take the SA option for the fighter, SA is not a feat. Instead of getting bonus feats, you get SA at the same rate a rogue does. No 3d6 SA at first level. No getting bonus feats at all.

Same way around if a rogue takes bonus feats. He can't use them to get SA. He just gets feats from the fighter list. A rogue in my game is doing this and has been pretty happy with it. The only thing I don't allow is Specialization, since that specifically requires FTR4.

 

[John Q. Mayhem]

There's a feat in MCAU called First Strike that requires 13+ Dex and gives you +1d6 vs. flat-footed. It can be taken up to 3 times.

 

[Li Shenron]

I think there's been some misconceptions about the way this works. When you take the SA option for the fighter, SA is not a feat. Instead of getting bonus feats, you get SA at the same rate a rogue does. No 3d6 SA at first level. No getting bonus feats at all.

Same way around if a rogue takes bonus feats. He can't use them to get SA. He just gets feats from the fighter list. A rogue in my game is doing this and has been pretty happy with it. The only thing I don't allow is Specialization, since that specifically requires FTR4.

That's how the UA variants work, but IUC we were just discussing - as a related topic - whether in general a +1d6 sneak attack is worth a feat, and if (as a different variant) it would be fine to (1) introduce a feat which gives a +1d6 s.a. multiple times and (2) allow a rogue to give up a +1d6 increase in change for a feat.

 

[Plane Sailing]

PlaneSailings houserule for Dirty Fighting was a +1d6 sneak attack damage. I use it since a long time as well and as long as you don't allow it to be taken several times, it's ok.

I was just going to mention that!

Part of my houserule was indeed that it could only be selected once, I listed it amongst my "psuedoclass feats". I also gave it the following prerequisites: INT 13+, base attack +4 or more (so that another class with it will always be behind the rogue)

Cheers

 

[Darklone]

I was just going to mention that!

Part of my houserule was indeed that it could only be selected once, I listed it amongst my "psuedoclass feats". I also gave it the following prerequisites: INT 13+, base attack +4 or more (so that another class with it will always be behind the rogue)

Cheers

Right, forgot to mention that BAB +4. All my bards loved that feat, I even thought about giving it to them for free at level 5 or 6.

 

[MoogleEmpMog]

WotC and most other companies seem to think, Unearthed Arcana notwithstanding, that sneak attack is worth more than a typical feat.

AEG's Rokugan book has a feat that adds +1d6 sneak attack (Bayushi's Technique, I believe), but it's for Scorpion Clan humans only and has two or three other feats as prerequisites.

WotC made its extra sneak attack feat an Epic feat.

Nonetheless, in my experience, sneak attack is a valid use for a feat and not really unbalancing. It's very strong, but very situational. Really, even taken to the max, it's still not going to do as much damage as an optimized Power Attack.

As for stepping on the rogue's toes... any fighter can eventually become an assassin or invisible blade and get sneak attack, in the latter case without losing BAB. The Rokugan ninja gets full sneak attack progression with a full BAB. Many base classes in Arcana Unearthed get half sneak attack progression, and many prestige classes from lots of sources get half or full. It's not exactly exclusive.

 

[Mr. Kaze]

WotC and most other companies seem to think, Unearthed Arcana notwithstanding, that sneak attack is worth more than a typical feat.

True. Compared to Weapon Specialization (+2 damage with a specific weapon type, Ftr 4 prereq, Weapon Focus prereq), a conditional 1d6 damage of sneak attack damage with little/no prerequisite is rather better. Where the comparison falls apart is when you're asking whether ~10 feats are better than Sneak Attack +10d6 -- as demonstrated by the bevvy of other things rogues can do (evasion, uncanny dodge, slippery mind, mega-skills and access to the skill-based PrCs with that), I'd have to say the answer is no: swapping out all of the fighter's feats -- the one thing they've really got to play with -- with nothing but Sneak Attack is going to result in a character who is very very sad when the party is facing undead ooze golems.

The Rokugan ninja gets full sneak attack progression with a full BAB.

And for those of you who've not seen it, Google for the .pdf -- it's a great class for augmenting rogues, rangers, and ex-monks. Wouldn't use it alone, though... In my experience, straight ninja (yuan-ti ninja at that) don't survive very long.

::Kaze (would never give up versatility for more than 4d6 of sneak attack)

 

[Aaron2]

True. Compared to Weapon Specialization (+2 damage with a specific weapon type, Ftr 4 prereq, Weapon Focus prereq), a conditional 1d6 damage of sneak attack damage with little/no prerequisite is rather better.

The seem fairly comparable to me. +2 versus everything or +3.5 versus most things under certain circumstances. It seems strange to me that high level fighters, whose entire life revolves around learning how to kill things, doesn't know how to strike at vital areas as well as a first level rogue. If a fighter want to fight dirty, he should be able to learn how, at least IMNSHO.

Oh, I'm all for Rage feats and Fast Movement feats.

Aaron