1E and 4E are similar? Really? (Forked from: 1E Resurgence?)

To some extent, I can understand why 4e strikes people as being similar to 1e. However, I'm not sure the main reason for this has been properly articulated or understood thus far.

1st edition evolved from tactical miniatures combat and was specifically designed to add role-playing elements to this type of combat. 4th edition was also specifically designed around tactical miniatures combat, albeit the type featured in MMORPGs rather than the more traditional wargames 1e sought to emulate. So certainly the emphasis on exactly where each figure is at any given point of time is highly reminiscent of 1e.

The relatively small number of options available to low-level characters in any given round is also very reminiscent of 1e. Such characters, if spellcasters, typically had a few spells they could cast but were otherwise forced to rely on at-will attacks (like slings and darts). Low-level characters in 4e also have a few spells they can cast and are otherwise forced to rely on at-will attacks (like magic missile and ray of frost). The 4e character may be "more magical" in a certain sense, but the in-game impact is largely the same.

That said, however, I'm not sure how well similarities like these really capture the overall feel of the game. To me the key point of departure is 4e's strict separation of tactical role-playing elements like magic missile from strategic/social role-playing elements, and the requirement that parties pay a ritual cost when opting for the latter course. This very much puts the wind at the back of those seeking a Diablo-type role-playing experience, as they're able to use all of their tactical powers without sacrificing gold. Whereas in 1e the wind was if anything at the back of those making their first tentative moves away from the battle mat, with many players exploring for the first time how one might go about running a gaming session with nothing but imagination. Admittedly miniatures were very commonly used in 1e and 4e both, but I don't see the flavor of these two editions as being nearly as similar as some people seem to believe.

One particular alleged similarity which I think people have exactly backwards is this one:
[*]Single-classing is DEFINITELY stressed over multiclassing.
The superiority of multi-classed characters in what we would now call "heroic" campaigns was so severe in 1e that it sometimes became difficult to find any single-class characters. And those who were single-classed were typically human fighters who planned to dual once they reached 7th level, eventually enjoying the complete use of all fighter class features plus the complete use of mage or thief class features too -- ideal for paragon-level or epic-level adventures. In this the contrast to 4th edition could hardly be more striking, as you can never gain most features of your second class no matter how much you might wish to do so, through multiclassing or dualclassing or anything else.

The bottom line, I think, is that people who enjoyed the tactical-combat aspect of 1e can rightfully see 4e as being a return to what they knew and loved about (A)D&D, but those who liked 1e for other reasons can be justifiably puzzled by the notion that 4e represents a return to those halcyon days.
 

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I know this is really subjective, but I begin to wonder if people aren't seeing what they want to see regarding the similarities between these two vastly different systems.

If this were true, we'd still be playing 3E (or 2E for that matter). I'd think its fairly obvious us old-school fans are notoriously hard to please...:)
 

Well, first of all, I don't use the silly 4E names for monsters :p

Second, I'm not talking about monsters, I'm talking about the fantasy world.

I think that the silly 4e names for monsters are difficult to avoid when talking about the fantasy world. As are names like Shadowfell, Feywild, etc.

Considering the vast amount of work to allow ideas from other settings into 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed, it amazes me that one would suggest that "4E is alot more inclusive and expansive and not so set in stone." Where is the 4e Charlemagne's Paladins sourcebook? The 4e Celts? 4e Testament?

Because, as we all know, fictional genres are defined by the licensing terms, rather than the tropes?

You obviously missed what I was responding to:

as AD&D came about and the game "matured" much of the fluff and flavor of the game became as tied into to the AD&D experience as the rules themselves​

and the suggestion that the fluff and flavour of 4e was less tied into the 4e experience. Simply not so, IMHO.


RC
 

Considering the vast amount of work to allow ideas from other settings into 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed, it amazes me that one would suggest that "4E is alot more inclusive and expansive and not so set in stone." Where is the 4e Charlemagne's Paladins sourcebook? The 4e Celts? 4e Testament?

4E's core "world system" is far more inclusive of using Fantasy themes and tropes outside the one's previous editions (from AD&D onward) have relied upon. I won't repeat myself a million times, it's quite obvious in my previous post what I'm referring to/

and the suggestion that the fluff and flavour of 4e was less tied into the 4e experience. Simply not so, IMHO.

Not what I was saying at all. Might wanna re-read my posts cos you are trying to go off in your own direction with my points.
 

Considering the vast amount of work to allow ideas from other settings into 2nd Ed and 3rd Ed, it amazes me that one would suggest that "4E is alot more inclusive and expansive and not so set in stone." Where is the 4e Charlemagne's Paladins sourcebook? The 4e Celts? 4e Testament?

Are you focusing on D&D4 "The Game" or D&D4 "The License?" From a mechanical standpoint, you could make exactly those sorts of products that actually captured the feel of those genres with the rules - but just like 2E where most of those appeared, it requires a bit of work from someone to do it - but if done well, would actually fit better than the way they were done in 2E, I think. After all, I can't see Roland or Chalremagne just repeatedly "power attacking" when they were cutting down Saracens, or splitting them collar to crotch (or was that Turpin? Can't remember) But I can't see Turpin using "Healing Word" or "Divine Fire of the Faithful" either. I can see room for special exploits that don't scream "magic."

Now, D&D4 "The License" is a different animal, one I'm more than a bit peeved with, myself. I see the OGL/GSL business and the intentional divide as a lot of sound and fury over nothing, but I don't run the company, either. But if the fan base/publishers were given free reign to run over the 4E rules, I believe we'd see some freakin' awesome supplements that would take the system in some really creative and innovative ways - things that WotC can't do because of a need to appeal to a wide fanbase while staying out of the red.
 

1st edition evolved from tactical miniatures combat and was specifically designed to add role-playing elements to this type of combat. 4th edition was also specifically designed around tactical miniatures combat, albeit the type featured in MMORPGs rather than the more traditional wargames 1e sought to emulate.
Which MMORPGs feature tactical minitatures combat? Just the fact that they're online would seem to preclude the use of minis... Which MMORPGs feature turn based combat, for that matter?
 

Which MMORPGs feature tactical minitatures combat? Just the fact that they're online would seem to preclude the use of minis... Which MMORPGs feature turn based combat, for that matter?
You know actually I played one a while back called Dofus? Flash based tactics RPG, massively multiplayer, harvesting and crafting and all that. Very pretty game. Not much like any kind of D&D.

I think this kind of perception is more typically leveled at the look & feel of some of the powers, as presented, in the 4th edition game though.
 

The superiority of multi-classed characters in what we would now call "heroic" campaigns was so severe in 1e that it sometimes became difficult to find any single-class characters. And those who were single-classed were typically human fighters who planned to dual once they reached 7th level, eventually enjoying the complete use of all fighter class features plus the complete use of mage or thief class features too -- ideal for paragon-level or epic-level adventures. In this the contrast to 4th edition could hardly be more striking, as you can never gain most features of your second class no matter how much you might wish to do so, through multiclassing or dualclassing or anything else.

Ironically, I saw this progress through my 2e days; in the beginning we had a lot of single-classed characters, but by the time of our last 2e campaign (planescape) we had 2 single-classed PCs and an army of multi-classers (fighter/mage, fighter/mage, mage/thief, fighter/cleric, fighter, paladin, the latter could not multi-class because of race/class combos)

the phenomenon again reared its ugly head in 3e, but only after the "prestige-multi-classes" came out. My last game had a fighter/ranger and a warlock/cleric, but nothing quite to the level of our 2e games.

No one has multi-classed in 4e yet, but I figure it will not be long...
 

If this were true, we'd still be playing 3E (or 2E for that matter). I'd think its fairly obvious us old-school fans are notoriously hard to please...:)

Some of us still are. I still play 3.5 with one group, and we plan on trying out Pathfinder. My other group is experimenting with 4E, but the likelyhood of it becoming our D&D edition of choice isn't looking so good right now.
 

If this were true, we'd still be playing 3E (or 2E for that matter). I'd think its fairly obvious us old-school fans are notoriously hard to please...:)

I think the situation is reversed. A lot of us old timers are happier with LESS rather than more.

Old timers can sit around with just the basic rules, basic classes (ZOMG every fighter is the same!!!!) roll the dice and play.

New school fans can't accept this. Without kewl powerz and 50 fiddly mechanical adjustments to be made to each character they can't enjoy the adventure.

Who is harder to please?
 

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