D&D 1E 1E-style dual-classing?

Dausuul

Legend
Would you allow 1E-style dual-classing in 5E? If so, how would you limit it? Allowing someone to dual-class from 1 level of Barbarian or Warlock to Fighter seems a mite good. OTOH Ftr 12 / Wiz 20 seems much more reasonable.
5E's multi-classing (like 3E's) is dual-classing. It's adapted to the d20 rules engine, and it's better balanced and more flexible, but it operates on the same principle: "I want to stop taking levels in fighter and start taking levels in wizard."

What we don't have in 5E is 1E-style multi-classing, where you essentially meld the abilities of two classes. In 3E, it was presented as the "gestalt" option (in Unearthed Arcana, IIRC). I would be interested to see if the DMG has any suggestions on that. I always liked 1E-style multiclass characters, but there were some major balance issues there*.

[SIZE=-2]*Unless you consider "I am going to be much more powerful than you for 10 levels, and then I will run into a brick wall and sit there sobbing while you move on past me" to be balanced.[/SIZE]
 

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Mercule

Adventurer
5E multi-classing is a refined version of 3E multi-classing. 3E multi-classing is actually the spiritual successor to 1E dual classing. 1E multi-classing just doesn't go well with standardized and balanced level abilities and XP progression. As far as there being a successor to 1E multi-classing, it would be 3E gestalt classes.

I'd like to know, specifically, what you want to pull forward from 1E dual classing. I see only two aspects that are really different:

1) Can't use new abilities until you're better in the new class than the old class. This is a penalty, plain and simple. It also never worked out well, in practice. It was fine, if you were switching from magic-user to fighter -- just don't cast spells. Going the other way, though, was questionable, because one of the benefits of being a fighter was high hit points. What about throwing daggers, after casting your one 1st level spell? There are some very weird judgment calls that get made, and it's rare that a group will agree on all of them. Don't do it.

2) Advance faster in the new class because 1st level is cheap. Don't do this. Period. It will break 5E. If the PC makes it to 5th level as a fighter, then switches to rogue, his next level is 6th. There should not be a way to avoid this. Even if you use #1, above, the character will eventually get to 6th level rogue and have no penalty for using fighter abilities, which makes him an 11th level character. He made it there with only 15% of the XP as the pure wizard took. I don't care how you slice it, that's broken.
 

Mercule

Adventurer
5E's multi-classing (like 3E's) is dual-classing. It's adapted to the d20 rules engine, and it's better balanced and more flexible, but it operates on the same principle: "I want to stop taking levels in fighter and start taking levels in wizard."

What we don't have in 5E is 1E-style multi-classing, where you essentially meld the abilities of two classes. In 3E, it was presented as the "gestalt" option (in Unearthed Arcana, IIRC). I would be interested to see if the DMG has any suggestions on that. I always liked 1E-style multiclass characters, but there were some major balance issues there*.

[SIZE=-2]*Unless you consider "I am going to be much more powerful than you for 10 levels, and then I will run into a brick wall and sit there sobbing while you move on past me" to be balanced.[/SIZE]

Doh! Missed page 3, before posting.
 

Quartz

Hero
One of the lovely things about 3E was the concept of dipping. 3E is a multi-classer's paradise. Want a Ftr 4 / Kt 5 / Pal 3? No problem! How about a Ftr 4 / Mk 16, representing a disciplined warrior? No problem! How about a Barb 2 / Mk 2 / Ftr 6? No problem! From my reading thus far, 5E fails badly at multi-classing, particularly with combat types.
 

DammitVictor

Trust the Fungus
Supporter
3e's multiclassing rules were broken and stupid. The 5e dev team clearly put a lot of thought and effort into fixing them, but they did not succeed, because the way that multiclassing system works is fundamentally incompatible with the way D&D class features are supposed to be designed.

I'm using a variant of Gestalt for now; I'm hoping the DMG offers a better solution.
 



DavidFoxfire

First Post
I have a 1ED game where a character had three dual-classes, and the player had to divide their earned XP equally among the different classes.

The way I take it is that, you have to earn your levels one at a time; A level in one class, then a level at another and then move on from there. Fortunately, I do allow level up beyond level 20 with the 30K XP milestone rule. One of the alternatives to gaining a boon is to continue gaining levels in their multi-classed classes, although they cannot 1) level up the same class until 3 Milestones later, and 2) cannot start multi-classing in an additional class.
 

Theodoxus

First Post
2) Advance faster in the new class because 1st level is cheap. Don't do this. Period. It will break 5E. If the PC makes it to 5th level as a fighter, then switches to rogue, his next level is 6th. There should not be a way to avoid this. Even if you use #1, above, the character will eventually get to 6th level rogue and have no penalty for using fighter abilities, which makes him an 11th level character. He made it there with only 15% of the XP as the pure wizard took. I don't care how you slice it, that's broken.

I take umbrage on this specifically. The Fighter 5/Rogue 6 is not an 11th level character. He has 6th level HD (5 Fighter, 1 rogue), has 6th level proficiency bonus and lots of options but still a single action to use them with - I call this "Broader Options, Shallower Specifics".

I'm in the process of writing up Dual Class / MultiClass taken from 1st Ed for 5th. I was hoping the discussion here would provide some direction on where I'm unclear on what to do - but instead I just see grognards boohooing a system they obviously won't adopt. Instead of being negative, just don't post. It'll help keep the discussion clean.

I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but what I'm looking at is doing this:

For Dual Classing, limiting it to two classes - any combination. Level as far in the first as you want, gain all abilities/proficiencies, HD, etc. Second class, XP resets to 0, you can't use any of the first class abilities except HPs, Saving Throws and HD for resting. Second class, once it surpasses the first, grants all abilities, proficiencies and saving throws - if you have a duplicated save, you gain advantage on saves for that attribute. If you have a duplicated skill, you can pick another skill (pretty sure that won't happen, as the skill lists are more extensive than the number you get - but just want to cover the bases in case another class comes along that necessitates it).
Spell casting: You gain two sets of distinct spell slot tables. A Cleric 5/Sorcerer 6 gets slots for each, and can not use cleric slots to cast sorcerer spells, or use sorcerer spell points to regenerate cleric slots.

For Multiclassing - I've created 4 class designations: Warrior (Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger); Priest (Cleric, Druid, Paladin); Mage (Sorcerer, Warlock, Wizard) and Knave (Bard, Monk, Rogue). A multiclass character can only pick one class from a designation. You can be Duo (Barbarian/Bard) Tri (Ranger/Druid/Warlock) or Quad (Fighter/Cleric/Wizard/Rogue) for example.
As I noted, I haven't crunched numbers yet, but the idea is that a duo class should reach 17/17 when a single class hits 20. A tri should hit 14/14/14 and a quad hit 11/11/11/11 - so I'll run numbers and create levels of advancement compared to a single classed character.
For abilities, the MC gains access to all their classes class abilities. They gain skill proficiencies equal to the most given for a specific class. A tri gains 1 additional, and a quad gains 2 additional skills, from the whole list of class options. Saving throws: Pick any two from any class available. A quad class gets a third choice. HPs are averaged - either rolled or the base provided in the PHB.
Spellcasting: Only have a single table, as shown for multiclassing in the PHB, however, any half or partial casters add to the table.
A 6th level Paladin (half)/Rogue (Arcane Trickster (partial)/Wizard (full)/Cleric (full) would be 6 (wizard/Cleric)+3 (Paladin)+2 (Rogue) = 11th spell slots to power their 3rd level and lower spells. Note, this character is on par with a 13th or so character, so their slots are still less than a single class caster - again, Broad Options, Shallow Specifics.

I haven't run this by my players yet - wanted to get the specifics down first - and was thrown for a loop trying to do experience tables by class (thrown out for simplicity sake). But at least the idea is intriguing to them.
 

Quartz

Hero
I'm in the process of writing up Dual Class / MultiClass taken from 1st Ed for 5th. I was hoping the discussion here would provide some direction on where I'm unclear on what to do - but instead I just see grognards boohooing a system they obviously won't adopt. Instead of being negative, just don't post. It'll help keep the discussion clean.

Thank you. I'd rather given up on the thread.

I haven't crunched the numbers yet, but what I'm looking at is doing this:

For Dual Classing, limiting it to two classes - any combination. Level as far in the first as you want, gain all abilities/proficiencies, HD, etc. Second class, XP resets to 0, you can't use any of the first class abilities except HPs, Saving Throws and HD for resting. Second class, once it surpasses the first, grants all abilities, proficiencies and saving throws - if you have a duplicated save, you gain advantage on saves for that attribute.

I'd suggest that skills remain available, and I think that granting advantage on a save might be a little too good.

If you have a duplicated skill, you can pick another skill (pretty sure that won't happen, as the skill lists are more extensive than the number you get - but just want to cover the bases in case another class comes along that necessitates it).
Spell casting: You gain two sets of distinct spell slot tables. A Cleric 5/Sorcerer 6 gets slots for each, and can not use cleric slots to cast sorcerer spells, or use sorcerer spell points to regenerate cleric slots.

Sounds good.
 

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