D&D 4E 1st level 4E characters are already Heroes

[Zaruthustran]

I think this conversation is drifting a bit, so in an attempt to refocus: I get the impression that the "1st level PCs are already Heroes" design choice was made so that the game is more fun, for more people.

If you sit down to play a game that's all about fighting monsters and taking their stuff, then it's FUN to be able to do that relatively effectively, right away. It's fun to be able to take 3-4 encounters before having to rest (as opposed to 1 single hit before having to rest). It's fun to tackle puny monsters with confidence (as opposed to being in mortal danger from a single goblin).

It's NOT fun to get dropped by a single hit by a wimpy kobold before your turn comes up in the first round of initiative in your first fight.

In my experience the default starting level for experienced players is 3rd. At this level you've got enough HPs to take a few hits, and enough abilities to have an interesting character. Seems to me that it makes a whole lot of sense to make 1st level of 4E start at that point--at the point where it's the most fun.

 

[mmadsen]

If you sit down to play a game that's all about fighting monsters and taking their stuff, then it's FUN to be able to do that relatively effectively, right away. It's fun to be able to take 3-4 encounters before having to rest (as opposed to 1 single hit before having to rest). It's fun to tackle puny monsters with confidence (as opposed to being in mortal danger from a single goblin). [...] In my experience the default starting level for experienced players is 3rd. At this level you've got enough HPs to take a few hits, and enough abilities to have an interesting character. Seems to me that it makes a whole lot of sense to make 1st level of 4E start at that point--at the point where it's the most fun.

If the game becomes fun for most people at third level, why not start at third level? Why call third level first level, then have no way of handling an actual novice who would've been first level under the old system?

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

If the game becomes fun for most people at third level, why not start at third level? Why call third level first level, then have no way of handling an actual novice who would've been first level under the old system?

Because we're trying to get new people to play. Current gamers suck at getting new people to play. Seriously. I've been failing for years. They need entirely fresh blood to pick these books up and say "Ooh, shiny!"

New people aren't going to read about how 1st level is only for the old skool players and they should start at 3rd if they actually want to have fun.

If they read that, they're going to put the book down and walk away. And I don't blame them. That doesn't make the least bit of sense. Why suffer for a while before you're allowed to have fun?

 

[Geron Raveneye]

If you sit down to play a game that's all about fighting monsters and taking their stuff, then it's FUN to be able to do that relatively effectively, right away. It's fun to be able to take 3-4 encounters before having to rest (as opposed to 1 single hit before having to rest). It's fun to tackle puny monsters with confidence (as opposed to being in mortal danger from a single goblin).

It's NOT fun to get dropped by a single hit by a wimpy kobold before your turn comes up in the first round of initiative in your first fight.

Maybe it's just me, but in my case, the fun comes from the trying...from actually sitting down at a game table, and trying to impersonate a character who goes and takes risks I'd not be easily willing to take in order to gain something. The character may have a few additional abilities (magic, fighting prowess, etc...), but is basically a living, breathing being, and I try to play him that way. That's the fun part. The "kill them all and take their stuff" part comes second to the "play a wizard in a fantasy setting" part, mostly. A close second, though...it's still D&D after all. Taking stuff from killed monsters is a gleeful moment. Trying to survive it all is the fun part.

 

[Sun Knight]

It's NOT fun to get dropped by a single hit by a wimpy kobold before your turn comes up in the first round of initiative in your first fight.

And tell me this, how often has this happen that a single wimpy kobold with a dagger taken out a strong and burly 1st level barbarian? How many times has that happen in your campaigns or close to it? Just wondering. I know that hasn't happen in any campaigns that I have ran or participated in but I am very much interested in your experience with a single wimpy kobold that this is such a concern for you.

 

[Sammael]

And tell me this, how often has this happen that a single wimpy kobold with a dagger taken out a strong and burly 1st level barbarian?

Pssst... kobolds also use crossbows. If you don't believe me, just look at Burning Plague, the first WotC 3E adventure (available for free on their site).

I ran the adventure a couple of times. Last time I DMed it, the kobolds took out the PC half-orc barbarian in two rounds.

 

[Sun Knight]

Good for the kobold. If a critter uses strategy and tactics and the PCs do not they deserve to be taken out.

However, was that just a fluke or does that consistantly happen as Zaruthustran suggests?

 

[Malhost Zormaeril]

From what I understand, "First-level PCs are already Heroes" probably refers to the fact that they start with a maybe-impressive array of abilities (manoeuvres, at-will spells, and so forth) the town guardsmen don't, rather than just having more HP or Attack bonuses. This way, the townsfolk send the five PCs rather than ten guards because the PCs have MAD KUNGFU SKILLZ, in spite of the fact that they keel over just as quickly when faced with steel in their innards

But that's just speculation on my part, anyway...

 

[Grog]

And tell me this, how often has this happen that a single wimpy kobold with a dagger taken out a strong and burly 1st level barbarian?

Not everybody plays strong and burly barbarians. Lots of people play wizards and rogues.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

Good for the kobold. If a critter uses strategy and tactics and the PCs do not they deserve to be taken out.

However, was that just a fluke or does that consistantly happen as Zaruthustran suggests?

If you play your NPCs smart... it happens a LOT. Especially range and trap critters like kobolds. Or especially anything built for single big hits. 1st level Orc Barbarian with a big weapon has been known to 1-shot people. If you treat that Orc as the slightest bit intelligent (i.e. smart enough to choose his targets) he's going to one-shot 1-2 people before they can kill him unless the PCs get lucky or make an VERY good plan, which would probably require some luck in most published adventures to even know what's coming (vis a vis spot and listen checks that they probably can't make with any reliability).