D&D 4E 1st level 4E characters are already Heroes

[Wormwood]

Because I am just one player out of a huge group and the rest of the group wants 4e then I am out of a gaming group.

You could always give it a try. One game with an open mind?

Just a suggestion.

 

[Sun Knight]

I would be more open to 4e if I actually heard changes they are doing to the game I like.

 

[Jeremy Ackerman-Yost]

I disagree completely. It's *fun* starting out as a 1st-level stripling, just making your way in the world. Think how how many fantasy novels start out this way. Harry Potter isn't an awesome ass-kicker at the start of the first book, and that's fine.

No, but he IS a hero already. He has inordinate ability to pick things up, he's unaccountably lucky, and things just seem to work out in his favor whenever it isn't dramatically necessary for them to suck.

All of that is also possible in D&D without making the characters into the equivalent of 3rd level+ 3e characters. Mostly, I suspect it will be in the monsters and setting assumptions. However, I suspect those 1st level heroic classes will have maneuvers, a few more hit points, and probably better defenses than 1st level NPCs. This models "the ability to pick things up" and "unaccountably lucky" very well. When you factor in that it sounds like the monsters are ALSO scarier relative to low level NPCs, you have "heroic" PCs that are fun to play and actually MAKE SENSE as the town's defense against those goblins/kobolds/whatever. In 3e, I've always wondered why the town guard just didn't do it. Doesn't matter what "it" is. Unless there are definitely magical traps involved, the warriors and experts at 2nd level in the town are probably at least as good at handling it as the 1st level PCs.

 

[JoeGKushner]

With what group? If my group goes to 4e, as I said in my previous post, then I am out of the gaming group. Since gaming groups are a rare thing where I live its not like I can easily join a new group, and no I don't do that online thing.

You guys keep saying that the books won't go into flames like that is a real concern when obviously it is not. The books are worthless if you don't have a group to game with.

And you're previous comment was "Then I guess I am no longer in WotC's target audience which indeed sucks since I spent so much money on their products, and was planning to buy a few more 3.5e items prior this 4e announcement. Since I am no longer in their target audience, nor are the people like me, they no longer want my money. A pity. Unfortunately I don't know of any other good fantasy RPGs out there, and don't say GURPS or Rolemaster. They both suck."

Maybe I'm missing it, but I don't see a lot about your group. Is that in a seperate post that I didn't quote and instead of bringing that part forward you quote me quoting the above? Heck, I even mentioned other gaming systems. Since you've mentioned that GURPS and Rolemaster suck, I must assume that you've played other games. This leads me to believe that your group plays other games.

Unless you're just basing GURPS/Rolemaster 'suckness' off a read which is a shame as they play different then they read.

Communication on the internet is far from ideal but no one is a mind reader here amigo.

And not having a group to play with stinks. However, that isn't your comment. You're comment is that you're not longer the target audience.

Two completely seperate arguements for future reference.

 

[Sun Knight]

My problem with GURPS is that it was too generalized and lacked the complexity to keep me interested. Rolemaster was on the other extreme with its endless charts. That is why I like 3.5e, with a little tweaking, it is a good middle ground between the two.

I have read about HARP but I am pretty leery about it due to my Rolemaster experience and Exalted definitely is too over the top for my tastes. I like my game to be gritty, but not too gritty, a little complex but not too complex. Hate to use the 3 bears analogy but 3.5e has it just right. It is comfortable and gets the job done.

More than likely I am over reacting and if I get on your guys' nerves I do apologize. Maybe I am too comfortable.

 

[JoeGKushner]

Might want to try out Runequest when they come out with the 'deluxe' edition which is supposed to combine a buncha stuff.

Or you might want to check out one of the self contained books like Elric, Hawkmoon, etc...

But if your group goes 4e, that still won't solve the problem of playing a game system you like. Heck, if your game group stays with 3.5 then you really have no problem.

 

[ptolemy18]

Try playing GURPS Fantasy. D&D hardly has a monopoly on starting out weak.

Yes, but I said "starting out weak *and getting strong*." In GURPS Fantasy, or Rolemaster, the rate of advancement is so slow and granular that you're essentially a normal human throughout the entire game, albeit possibly a normal human who's an expert swordsman. It's only in D&D that you start out kinda "slightly above average" and then by 13th level you're teleporting around and laying waste to entire cities. And so you get your choice of low and high fantasy in one game! It's a D&D standby!

Jason

 

[ptolemy18]

In terms of starting power levels, one of the greatest weaknesses in the D&D engine is that it's never really accounted for background.
Elric. In his first novel, he's a master conjuror, commands vast armies, is an expert swordsman, has the finest arms and armor. And that's before he gets Stormbringer.
Robin Hood: I don't think we'll see too many say that he's 1st level at the start of the story.
Conan: While Conan is not at the height of his prowess when he's first introduced, he's no first level character either.
Hawkmoon: Starts off in a bad situation and gains items as he goes through the series but there is no doubt that he's a master swordsman and tactician.
Eternal Warrior: Well, he's the Eternal Warrior, Erekose!
.

Good point. But I'm also very fond of the Dying Earth/Clark Ashton Smith/Fritz Leiber/H.P. Lovecraft "some rogues stumble into an ancient ruin in the jungle and everyone gets eaten by monsters and dies" fantasy settings.

I will be disappointed if D&D4e doesn't allow me to play low-fantasy games. Currently in D&D3.x, I can play low-fantasy or high-heroic-fantasy, depending on what level the characters are at. I'm sure that there will still be an aspect of power-scaling in the 4e, but I like to keep the low-fantasy option open, or at least as open as it is in the existing rules.

Jason

 

[JoeGKushner]

Good point. But I'm also very fond of the Dying Earth/Clark Ashton Smith/Fritz Leiber/H.P. Lovecraft "some rogues stumble into an ancient ruin in the jungle and everyone gets eaten by monsters and dies" fantasy settings.

I will be disappointed if D&D4e doesn't allow me to play low-fantasy games. Currently in D&D3.x, I can play low-fantasy or high-heroic-fantasy, depending on what level the characters are at. I'm sure that there will still be an aspect of power-scaling in the 4e, but I like to keep the low-fantasy option open, or at least as open as it is in the existing rules.

Jason

In the old Dying Earth, I don't recall too many of the heroes, including the meanest of the rogues, Cudgel, getting eaten. Nor do I recall the Twain ever getting eaten.

The threat of death on the other hand? Yeah, solidly there.

 

[Brother MacLaren]

And, for me at least, this leads to huge flavor problems. If low level adventurers are so weak, why does anyone ever ask them for help? Why would a small town send a party of four 1st level PCs to deal with that goblin tribe that's been harassing them when a patrol of town guardsmen could handle the problem just as well if not better?

That's why adventures for 1st-level PCs shouldn't involve locals specifically seeking them out for help.
Module B1, Into the Unknown: the PCs are just dungeon-delvers out to make a name for themselves, not beholden to anyone
Module B2, Keep on the Borderlands: very similar
First session of MarauderX's 3.5 campaign: the PCs are among those who have chosen to respond to a general request for militia and end up defending a homestead from a goblin assault. Town guardsmen are included in the group as well.

People don't turn to them because they're heroes -- they haven't yet made a name for themselves. But they've chosen to take a risk out of altruism or out of a desire for fame and glory.

Once they're 3rd-level or so, they are well above the town guard in competence and it makes sense that people would seek them out.