1st-level characters in the Tomb of Horrors

[XO]

Not really...but...

...in 1E, it is WAY more fun for the DM to kill 14th level characters that took YEARS to develop...

Little ToH Anecdote
For the mithril vaults, I remember players using (sic) lasers.... When I got the blood gushing, one of them said "Lasers cauterize!"...

1) I died when he said that (the omg my muscles ache from laughing too much)
2) They became very, very rich...

Of course, pounding the blood out at the forge did take some time, but they paid someone to do that.

To which my conclusion would be, if you don't want players to access something, do NOT put it in... Ever... Unless you have a thousand rays of death pointed at it... And then they would STILL try to find a way...

My player's read that Tenser was into carting every last copper coin... Well, they felt that was just a FINE idea...

 

[jgbrowning]

Can a party of 1st-level characters make it through the [original] Tomb of Horrors? What about the dungeon requires the abilities of characters of 10th to 14th level?

Quasqueton

I'd have to vote no. Reasons are similiar to those above.

joe b.

 

[thedungeondelver]

My favorite "Beat Acererack" methodology is to cast transmute rock to mud on the altar the demi-lich's skull rests on. In it sinks, then cast dispel magic or transmute mud to rock on the puddle.

Collect treasure, thumb your nose at the now-trapped skull, leave.

 

[DM_Matt]

The fact that this is even debatable is a testament to how bad the module is, in that its so grossly unfair and arbitrary that the actual rules of the game have minimal impact on the mechanical outcomes.

 

[thedungeondelver]

The fact that this is even debatable is a testament to how bad the module is, in that its so grossly unfair and arbitrary that the actual rules of the game have minimal impact on the mechanical outcomes.

And yet it's one of the best selling D&D modules and merited a "Return to" boxed set.

Funny, that.

 

[DM_Matt]

And yet it's one of the best selling D&D modules and merited a "Return to" boxed set.

Funny, that.

Lots of things are popular and bad.

Also, its my impression (and I could be totally wrong here) that the "Return to..." version was at least somewhat less arbitrary and more grounded in the actual rules.

 

[Faraer]

Relying more on strategy and less on die rolls is unfair and arbitrary and therefore bad? That's a pretty idiosyncratic idea of quality. The rules are there to adjudicate conflicts when the world as created by the DM interacts with the actions of PCs in uncertain ways, that's all. There's no inherent virtue in their having a big role in play rather than a smaller one.

Regarding the main point, one of the hallmarks of Gygaxian D&D is that without good play -- defined in a particular way -- characters shouldn't get to high levels. Skilful play and powerful characters go together.

 

[painandgreed]

The fact that this is even debatable is a testament to how bad the module is, in that its so grossly unfair and arbitrary that the actual rules of the game have minimal impact on the mechanical outcomes.

Funny, i think it is one of the better ones for those exact same reasons. Having the uber character doesn't matter, only your actions and a bit of luck.

The adventure I'm running my characters through right now at 1st level could easily be an epic adventure, but it is doable by 1st level if they keep their heads about them. You trade high level power for a bit of thought and planning because sneaking around the sleeping dragon works as well as killing it in many cases.

 

[Zendragon]

There is no way a party of first levels could go through as written and survive. I ran this adventure twice for a couple different groups. Each one had at least one character death. This was at 13th-14th level in AD&D.

 

[DM_Matt]

Funny, i think it is one of the better ones for those exact same reasons. Having the uber character doesn't matter, only your actions and a bit of luck.

The adventure I'm running my characters through right now at 1st level could easily be an epic adventure, but it is doable by 1st level if they keep their heads about them. You trade high level power for a bit of thought and planning because sneaking around the sleeping dragon works as well as killing it in many cases.

Call me a newfangled ruleslawyer munchkin with no respect for the rules-light simulationist good old days where DM power made outsiders mistake them for cult leaders and the standard adventure was a dungeon with separate rooms and levels with no coherant ecosystem, no coherant story, and often ,creatures in rooms they couldnt fit through the door to get into, but...

...the existance of consistant rules is important for a functioning game. The lack of rules is simply an excuse for DM powertripping. Without rules, everything is a railroad because everything is DM whim.

...parts of the module are unavoidable flat random chance unfairness, such as the juggernaut.

...parts of the module are quite arbitrary.

...parts of the module are not about being smart at all. They are about simulating the kind of physical reactions that saving throws and ability checks are for, such as everyone must do this before you count to five in your head or all the PCs die garbage.

...character power should matter for outcomes for the world to make any sense.