1st Person vs. 3rd Person DMing

[Pbartender]

Yeah, the trouble with 2nd person is that you can too easily slip into telling the player what his character feels or even how he acts. I think 2nd person voice has a very limited utility, and generally I only employ it as a stop gap measure when the player lacks some information that I believe his character should have. For example, I might employ 2nd person to explain some knowledge, intuition, or insight the character has, often as a result of me or the player making some sort of skill or wisdom check. Second person is particularly useful in this case for separating 'What the character has been taught or believes' from DM backed affirmations of campaign truth.

That, and a lot of people forget that environmental description can very often be 2nd Person... Anything that begins, "You see..." or "You hear..." Follow those with a thoroughly visceral description, and you'll "role playing" reactions from your players as fine as anything you'll get in a conversation with an NPC.

 

[DSlash]

That, and a lot of people forget that environmental description can very often be 2nd Person... Anything that begins, "You see..." or "You hear..." Follow those with a thoroughly visceral description, and you'll "role playing" reactions from your players as fine as anything you'll get in a conversation with an NPC.

Yep, any time the player does a skill check for something in my game, they almost always get a response in 2nd person. I use 2nd person for that, introductions and maybe a little bit of railroading when the players are a little stuck.

 

[Woas]

Eh, to each their own I guess.

I don't really see 2nd Person any more restrictive or hand-holding or railroading then as a GM saying in third person, "Climbing this wall is going to be very difficult, what with the early morning dew and smooth stones," than saying, "You've scaled a lot of walls before and feel this one will be a challenge to you, what with the early morning dew and smooth stones,"

 

[DSlash]

I don't really see 2nd Person any more restrictive or hand-holding or railroading then as a GM saying in third person, "Climbing this wall is going to be very difficult, what with the early morning dew and smooth stones," than saying, "You've scaled a lot of walls before and feel this one will be a challenge to you, what with the early morning dew and smooth stones,"

It really does just come down to personal preference. I don't think there's anything you can do in third person that can't be done in second person. I probably don't feel comfortable using second person in that way because third person just comes more naturally to me.

 

[Celebrim]

Eh, to each their own I guess.

I don't really see 2nd Person any more restrictive or hand-holding or railroading then as a GM saying in third person, "Climbing this wall is going to be very difficult, what with the early morning dew and smooth stones," than saying, "You've scaled a lot of walls before and feel this one will be a challenge to you, what with the early morning dew and smooth stones,"

"[you] feel this one will be a challenge..." is an appropriate attempt to convey a difficulty to the player in natural language without resorting to metalanguage.

I'd adopt that 2nd person language in response to a player proposition like, "How difficult does climbing the wall seem to be?", without a second thought.

Where I've seen many DM's go off the rails though is by adopting too much of a 'lean foward' 'Choose your own adventure'/'Zork' approach to narration, and they begin to slip into the narration things like:

"You've scaled a lot of walls before and feel this one will be a challenge to you. You put your hands against the wall and test its slipperyness. What with the early morning dew and smooth stones, you find it very slippery indeed and the very thought of climbing the wall makes you quell with fear."

I consider the two italicized sections to be bad form for a PnP game, even if they might be well suited to other media. In the first section, the DM grants himself authority to make extended decisions about how the character acts. In the second section, the DM grants himself authority to describe the PC's internal feelings. I consider both to be breaking the wall of separation between what is within the DM's narrative control and what is within the PC's narrative control. In this example, neither tresspass is particularly annoying, but I think its just a bad habit. The very worst DM monologueing IMO occurs when the DM gets extended ideas about what the character is doing or feeling and tries to tell the player about it. As a player, when I get extensive 2nd person narration telling me about my behavior and feelings, my tendency is to wonder why I'm even playing.

 

[Pbartender]

The very worst DM monologueing IMO occurs when the DM gets extended ideas about what the character is doing or feeling and tries to tell the player about it. As a player, when I get extensive 2nd person narration telling me about my behavior and feelings, my tendency is to wonder why I'm even playing.

Right.

For a DM, the slippery slope of 2nd Person goes from the high point simply describing what the player characters are observing all the way down to the bottomless pit of role playing the players' characters for them.

 

[Janx]

i use 2nd person to relay what the senses are getting (you see X, you smell Y). I also use it to relay player actions, based on what they told me or has happened to them. Part active listening, part descriptive text. (you swing your axe at the orc and it carves a deep gash into his side. You stagger a step as you block the orc's two-handed sword).

I never use it to state what a PC is feeling, or to declare a PC's action that the player didn't declare themself.

I use 1st person for most NPCs (unless we're trying to do quick-shopping) in what they say. I might launch into 1st person, with a 3rd person declaration (the shopkeeper barks, "Hey, you gonna pay for that?").

I use 3rd person for NPC actions, even within the conversation.

Minimizing Multiple NPC Scenes is a good idea. Especially avoid having opposed NPCs, either conversationally or combatively. It's too much mess, and tends to put the PCs in the audience, rather than protagonist position. If you do have multiple NPCs, make 1 of them in charge, thus doing most of the talking. The lesser NPCs, if they say anything, will likely be to agree or nod.