D&D 5E 2/18/13 L&L column

[Ed_Laprade]

I think this is an area with a lot of overlapping issues. Healing is probably so scattered in the data because it's a multifaceted issue.

Ultimately, for the "basic" game, the raw D&D experience, having magical cleric healing being the only real healing available beyond a full night's sleep (which might not even heal you to full) is probably fine, on the first, simplest, most basic level.

However, even there, we absolutely want to avoid the "somebody must play a cleric" problem. Nothing is going to defeat a newbie's enthusiasm quite like being told that there's this awesome game of warriors and wizards out there, and that everyone else will be playing those classes, but you have to play a cleric -- the guy whose main job is to hand out HP's.

So we absolutely want a group entirely made up of Fighters to be totally OK with not having anyone there as a heal-bot.

Which ultimately means that, magical or not, we're going to need to give these fighters access to something that does the same thing that healing does.

A mechanic that lets them ignore damage could fill that role, of course. Mathematically, there's not a big difference between ignoring 1d8 points of damage and healing 1d8 points of damage. It's all in the psychology after that. Which means you absolutely want to be clear, even in the Basic game, that a Cleric is a useful team member to have, but they aren't essential.

If you can pull that off, you're probably solid for the Basic game.

And then we can worry about options for non-magical healing when we're out of the "pure D&D experience" woods. It's vital that 5e have such an option, I feel, but it probably doesn't have to be in the Basic game. As long as even there, nobody is forced mechanically to play a cleric, we're probably solid.

If anyone is forced to play the cleric (or any "substitute cleric" Leader), though, we've got issues, even in the Basic game, 'cuz that's gonna lead to bored first-timers being made to play a role they're not into just because the party "needs" one.

This, absolutely. By now I figured that I was going to buy 5E/Next pretty much however it ended up. But if you have to have a party cleric in the basic game, no. Just... NO!

 

[Falling Icicle]

The most important info in the column IMHO is the confirmation that feedback and surveys clearly point to the fact that there is no consensus whatsoever on healing in D&D.

This means that whatever they pick as the default, they're doom to fail because we will declare that they have failed, because the majority will always be against whatever default. And even default + a bunch of variants (as it is now), it's not enough because those variants cover different practical setups, but don't so much more fundamental deviations, and each variant again is going to be favourite by a minority at best.

I disagree. IMO there hasn't been a concensus about healing in Next not because people can't agree, but rather because none of the solutions that WotC has come up with thusfar are very good.

 

[MoonSong]

First of all, I was talking about whether or not healing felt special. The fact (?) that most groups didn't use CLW wands is besides the point: healing has never been special at all, and the CLW wand is just icing on the cake of blandness.

As for the rest of your quote... I have no idea what you're even talking about. Why would you dread being healed? If your friend slings a heal your way, doesn't that imply you're hurt? And if you're hurt, don't you want to get better? Hoarding surges won't do you any good if you're dead. And also, you can refuse to take advantage of a beneficial spell being aimed at you. Nobody can heal you against your wishes. Why are these healers you're talking about using up all your surges in a single fight? Why are your healers "competing" for the surges, when they don't need to spend any actions or powers on somebody who's already been healed by their colleague just before their turn came up?

I'm sorry to say this, but I've played 4e a lot, including running 3-day marathon sessions every year... but are you quite sure you guys weren't misunderstanding something? Because what you describe sounds nothing like 4e.

Well IT HAPPENNED.

Well, this was just my second time playing 4e and we were a bunch of 4e noobs (the first time it was with more experienced players and DM, the DM was very good at handling skill challenges) as such the material was restricted to just phbs. Seeing I needed to understand more about the game to propperly play a leader, I decided to play out of my comfort zone and build a defender.

We played a couple of encounters and they worked well, during those fights I took very little damage and decided not to expend surges. Then the party grew, including a couple more leaders another defender and a pair of extra strikers, nothing wrong there.

First fight after that was a little more difficult, and I had to use two surges, one for Comeback strike and one in the short rest, I still wasn't at full health, but the damage I had was so small I thought it didn't justiffied another surge. Then we entered another room and had to fought a pair of elites plus minions and then things got nasty...

First round I go and mark one of those two, setting up the rogue for flanking, then the first leader dropped a heal on me to bring me up to full, then the minion closes and hits me, then next leader drops another heal on me, then my mark attacks and hits me, next leader drops another heal to bring me to full.

The following round a similar pattern repeated, with the leaders taking turns to use my surges (notice that only one surge per round would have been enough to keep me over bloodied). Then elite uses a rechargable power on me and severely damages me, Now I'm bloodied and with no surges left to use my own panic button, so the next attack by a minion after my turn put me down. (Now the party was huge, about nine or ten PC's and I wasn't paying too much attention to my surges, neither the leaders, I wasn't expecting their healing would contribute to the death of my character).

They were pretty much the norm in all of my 3.x games from about 2002 or so, onwards. My cleric players usually didn't want to be healbots, and the healstick enabled them to do other stuff.

It was only mostly absent in my Arcana Evolved games, and that's because healing spells were a lot less potent in general.

-O

Well, of course, if you don't get any healbots you are going to recurr to wands. But since I usually play healbot clerics or outright healers, those might be a myth as well, I haven't witnessed those in play (well, not outside of arena settings) Whenever I play a healing focussed character I get to feel special, and my healing feels special. I've never felt replaced by a wand of CLW (or lesser vigor), because the only times I don't play a healbot are when I play a completely different kind of character.

On 4e on the other hand, I cannot enjoy playing a dedicated healer, things are just too different, the 4e model sure does wonders for those who didn't fancy playing healbots, but feels extremely harsh, restrictive and even hostile to those of us who did.

 

[pemerton]

I had to use two surges, one for Comeback strike and one in the short rest, I still wasn't at full health, but the damage I had was so small I thought it didn't justiffied another surge. Then we entered another room and had to fought a pair of elites plus minions and then things got nasty...

First round I go and mark one of those two, setting up the rogue for flanking, then the first leader dropped a heal on me to bring me up to full, then the minion closes and hits me, then next leader drops another heal on me, then my mark attacks and hits me, next leader drops another heal to bring me to full.

The following round a similar pattern repeated, with the leaders taking turns to use my surges (notice that only one surge per round would have been enough to keep me over bloodied). Then elite uses a rechargable power on me and severely damages me, Now I'm bloodied and with no surges left to use my own panic button, so the next attack by a minion after my turn put me down. (Now the party was huge, about nine or ten PC's and I wasn't paying too much attention to my surges, neither the leaders, I wasn't expecting their healing would contribute to the death of my character).

I had the same response as [MENTION=6706099]Sage Genesis[/MENTION] on reading your initial post about this. Having read your reply, there's still one thing I'm missing - were the healer's healing you when you weren't down a full surge (+ bonus dice etc) of hit points?

If not, then I don't see how they killed you, as you would have had even fewer hit points when struck by the elite and minion than you did, and would have died.

If they were, then I don't see the surge issue as such - I see sub-optimal play. Of course spending surges for less than their full value is going to hurt you (which is exactly why you took the very reasonable decision to finish your short rest a few hit points down).

There are other reasons not to have three healers in a party of nine PCs - let's have more strikers, please, to try and keep things moving! - but being "healed to death" isn't one of them.

 

[I'm A Banana]

If this was truly an issue for you, I would ask why you were playing Basic in the first place? Why aren't you playing Standard? Considering the very first time you add ANY optional rule to your Basic game it becomes a Standard game anyway... even just a single one... why don't you just add one of the other healing mechanics to your game at the beginning and start at Standard? Then you don't have to worry about them possibly "being stuck" as the Healer?

Like I said: newbies. People who are potentially interested in D&D because they liked LotR or enjoyed the Harry Potter movies or like CRPGs. The people that Basic is made for. Only, none of them really want to be a cleric.

If your first exposure to D&D is being made to play a class you're not that into playing, it's not going to be the best potential first exposure, and it might not lead to a second (especially if you're going to be playing the same character that you're not enthusiastic about for the foreseeable future).

 

[Dragoslav]

The following round a similar pattern repeated, with the leaders taking turns to use my surges (notice that only one surge per round would have been enough to keep me over bloodied). Then elite uses a rechargable power on me and severely damages me, Now I'm bloodied and with no surges left to use my own panic button, so the next attack by a minion after my turn put me down. (Now the party was huge, about nine or ten PC's and I wasn't paying too much attention to my surges, neither the leaders, I wasn't expecting their healing would contribute to the death of my character)

Sounds more like all of that damage was contributing to the death of your character. If you had 9 or 10 PCs, I think someone else could have tagged in and taken a few hits instead of you, not to mention the fact that having that many PCs will always throw everything out of balance.

Also, you mentioned that you weren't really paying attention to your healing surges. It's understandable if you're not used to the mechanic that you might forget to keep an eye on them, but they are a combat resource like any other and thus you have to keep an eye on them if you want to perform optimally.

 

[MoonSong]

I had the same response as @Sage Genesis on reading your initial post about this. Having read your reply, there's still one thing I'm missing - were the healer's healing you when you weren't down a full surge (+ bonus dice etc) of hit points?

If not, then I don't see how they killed you, as you would have had even fewer hit points when struck by the elite and minion than you did, and would have died.

If they were, then I don't see the surge issue as such - I see sub-optimal play. Of course spending surges for less than their full value is going to hurt you (which is exactly why you took the very reasonable decision to finish your short rest a few hit points down).

There are other reasons not to have three healers in a party of nine PCs - let's have more strikers, please, to try and keep things moving! - but being "healed to death" isn't one of them.

Sounds more like all of that damage was contributing to the death of your character. If you had 9 or 10 PCs, I think someone else could have tagged in and taken a few hits instead of you, not to mention the fact that having that many PCs will always throw everything out of balance.

Also, you mentioned that you weren't really paying attention to your healing surges. It's understandable if you're not used to the mechanic that you might forget to keep an eye on them, but they are a combat resource like any other and thus you have to keep an eye on them if you want to perform optimally.

Yes, the leaders were healing me by less than full surge value, probably not the best of the ideas, and a very suboptimal play, but we were a bunch of 4e noobs what else couuld be expected? (I also took a reckleess OA for example) . As for tagging out, well I was the defender, the other defender was marking the other elite, and if I recall propperly only the rogue was fighting it with me, the rest of the party was focussing fire on the other elite. On hindsight it is very obvious we had an abysmal strategy. but if I'd had a single extra source that round I would have been able to use my personal panic button, survive the round, then see the rest of the party focussing fire on the already half-baked thing and survive. Lots of beginner's mistakes there. But that is precisely the point, 4e: two or more leaders have to coordinate very well in order not to heal too much and deplete party resources (basically a Zero sum), previously: two or more healers, their healing resources just stack (a non-zero sum).

 

[Leatherhead]

The only reason for healing is to counteract damage and get people back into a combat ready state in a reasonable amount of time. "Reasonable", of course, is largely dependent on play styles.

It might be simpler if they just took healing out of core.

But I want to see their take on ritual based healing.

 

[n00bdragon]

Yes, the leaders were healing me by less than full surge value, probably not the best of the ideas, and a very suboptimal play, but we were a bunch of 4e noobs what else couuld be expected? (I also took a reckleess OA for example).

IIRC there are no healing effects in the game which cost a surge but heal you for less than surge value... aside from potions. Were the healers just pouring potions down your mouth the whole time?

 

[pemerton]

4e: two or more leaders have to coordinate very well in order not to heal too much and deplete party resources (basically a Zero sum), previously: two or more healers, their healing resources just stack (a non-zero sum).

That's an interesting perspective. Is your "previously" 3E? Because I don't have much experience with 3E, and the few times I have played it I don't think we had a very serious healer.

The 4e group that I GM has 3 healers out of 5 PCs: a hybrid ranger-cleric (two minor action heals per encounter, plus Invigorating Stride to get easier access to second wind); a paladin (four minor action heals per day, plus second wind as a free action when bloodied (Questing Knight)); and a dwarf fighter multi-classed cleric (between feat and item two or three minor or free action heals per day, plus an encounter attack that heals (Battle Cry), plus second wind as a minor action with Cloak of the Walking Wounded once per encounter).

One thing you'll notice is no dedicated healer. My own intuition, for what it's worth, is that this suits 4e: it's a very active game, and being a dedicated healer is probably a bit passive. (So on this I think we're agreed, though coming to the same conclusion from different experiences.) But the other things I've noticed is that co-ordination among the healers isn't typically co-ordination in respect of surge expenditure, as co-ordination in respect of action economy (especially when things get dicey). And that's not zero-sum in the relevant sense.

But on the resource-depletion issue - in a more traditional D&D like AD&D or B/X, and I would have thought in 3E too, isnt a healer who heals you for less than the overall value of their spell also squandering resources? Eg if you're 2 hp down, it would be a waste to cast a Cure Light Wounds, wouldn't it? The situation you describe looks a bit like that - only in 4e, instead of the caster's running out of spells, it's your PC running out of surges.

This also reinforces [MENTION=6690267]Dragoslav[/MENTION]'s point about the importance of surges as resource management; and it reinforces your point, too, about the changed role of a healer, because it's now up to you, the fighter, to manage that resource rather than the healer to manage his/her spells. (That said, the healer's in my game typically do like to know that they're getting bang for their buck before they will let someone heal up, because most of the healing is daily rather than encounter.)