2 5th-level warblades: extra full attacks?

[brehobit]

As I look over the Tome of Battle I've found that the maneuvers are in many cases weaker than I'd guess. But a few of them are HUGELY powerful. And of course, those are the troubling ones.

As an example of abuseable power, consider 2 5th level warblades. There is a 3rd level manouver which, as a swift action, you can move someone's action to be right after yours (sorry, don't recall the name). Using it, they can basically get an extra _full_ action every other round.

I think this works:

Warblade 1 attacks.
Warblade 2 attacks, moves 1 right after him
Warblade 1 attacks, moves 2 right after him
Warblade 2 attacks.
Baddy goes
Warblade 1 attacks, recovers actions
Warblade 2 attacks, recovers actions
Baddy goes
Goto start, repeat until dead.

Note that during the attacks you can do any non-swift attack (so pure full-attack, a strike, whatever). So you spend 2 swift actions and having a certain manouver ready and you get an extra full attack every other round. AND full recovery of your manouvers. As actions (and more-so full actions) are the core of power in this game, I think this is huge.

As a note, a warblade 5 and a Wizard 8/warblade 1 could also do this. Giving wizards extra standard/full actions is rarely a good idea.

Hiorribly broken? Maybe not. But pretty huge.

Of course, so it the 8th level manouver that lets you attack EVERYONE you are next to (not that you threaten, so no reach weapons stuff here) TWICE at full-attack AND gives a +4 unnamed bonus to those attacks. Sure, it's 8th level, but _dude_ that is huge and works way well with certain other manouvers and feats...

 

[Gargoyle]

The name of the maneuver is White Raven Tactics. I agree the RAW on this do not seem to take multiple warblades into account.

To add some detail to the example, it goes like this (your example is correct enough though):
Round 1
(init 20) Warblade 1 does a full attack action.
(init 19) Warblade 2 does a full attack action, uses WRT as a swift action.
(init 18) Warblade 1 does a second full attack action, uses WRT as a swift action.
(init 17) Warblade 2 does a full attack action.

Round 2
(init 18) Warblade 1 recovers all maneuvers as a swift action, uses full attack action.
(init 17) Warblade 2 recovers all maneuvers as a swift action, uses full attack action.

Round 3: see round 1, but initiatives start as round 2. rinse and repeat.

Bringing up wizards is a good point too. Here's an example of a wizard and three warblades:

Round 1
(init 20) Wizard casts nasty spell
(init 19) Warblade 1 does a full attack action, uses WRT as a swift action.
(init 18) Wizard casts a second nasty spell
(init 17) Warblade 2 does a full attack action, uses WRT as a swift action.
(init 16) Wizard casts a third nasty spell
(init 15) Warblade 3 does a full attack action, uses WRT as a swift action.
(init 14) Wizard casts a fourth nasty spell

There seem to be two problems. One is the warblades ability to recover maneuvers seems too easy, but I won't go too far into that as it's discussed in depth on other threads. But making it harder for them to recover maneuvers makes pairs or even groups of warblades using WRT on each other not so bad.

The second problem is the maneuver allows the same character to take a number of actions limited only by the number of warblade allies he has with this maneuver. Not only is this unbalancing, but it stretches believability for an extraordinary ability.

A good house rule might be to limit WRT to allow an ally to benefit from this maneuver only once per round, even if there are multiple martial adepts using it. This brings it more in line with bonuses granted by haste, and is just common sense.

 

[Gargoyle]

Of course, so it the 8th level manouver that lets you attack EVERYONE you are next to (not that you threaten, so no reach weapons stuff here) TWICE at full-attack AND gives a +4 unnamed bonus to those attacks. Sure, it's 8th level, but _dude_ that is huge and works way well with certain other manouvers and feats...

Adamantine Hurricane from the Iron Heart discipline

I don't have as much of a problem with this one. It's great, maybe too good, but I'll have to see it in play. Area effect spells at these levels can be just as nasty, so I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.

 

[kigmatzomat]

The name of the maneuver is White Raven Tactics.

A good house rule might be to limit WRT to allow an ally to benefit from this maneuver only once per round, even if there are multiple martial adepts using it. This brings it more in line with bonuses granted by haste, and is just common sense.

We came to the same conclusion after having our test runs with ToB resulted in a pair of Crusaders WRT-boosting the SwordSage in the early rounds of combat. We've also debated whether it overlaps with haste in some fashion but that discussion is still ongoing.

 

[moritheil]

Mmm, absurdity.

WOTC really should post under which conditions each class/feat/ability was tested. It might help them in evaluating their playtesting conditions.

 

[pawsplay]

Rule of thumb for designers: any action less than a full action should never grant another full action or affect the initiative order.

 

[RigaMortus2]

The best thing is that 2 Warblades each with White Raven Tactics can move across the battlefield instantly by doing this...

1) WB1 attacks and takes 5' step, uses WRT to move WB2 below their init
2) WB2 attacks and takes 5' step, uses WRT to move WB1 below their init
3) WB1 uses Standard Action to get all maneuvers back, take 5 foot step, uses WRT to move WB2 below their init
4) WB2 uses Standard Action to get all maneuvers back, take 5 foot step, uses WRT to move WB1 below their init
5) Repeat 3-4

Basically, you can take infinite 5 foot steps. Also, you can repeat any other free actions you normally get on your turn. You also get 1 move action per round as well.

 

[starwed]

The best thing is that 2 Warblades each with White Raven Tactics can move across the battlefield instantly by doing this...

What you've written doesn't work, because both refreshing and using WRT are swift actions.

However, you can solve this problem either with the feat which lets you swap out and refresh all actions as a full round action, or by having two swordsages take the maneuver (and any prereqs) through Martial Study. Then it would go:

1. Martial Adept 1 performs arbitrary full round action, uses WRT to move MA 2 up next.
2. MA 2 performs arbitrary actions, uses WRT to move MA 1 up next.
3. MA 1 uses full round action to recover WRT, then uses it to move MA 2 up next
4. MA 2 recovers WRT, moves MA 1 up next...
5. MA 1 performs arbitrary full round action, rinse and repeat...

So it's really an infinite full action combo, unless I'm missing something. (I don't have my books on me.)

 

[Alceste]

Adamantine Hurricane from the Iron Heart discipline

I don't have as much of a problem with this one. It's great, maybe too good, but I'll have to see it in play. Area effect spells at these levels can be just as nasty, so I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.

Standard action does not stack with haste. Most parties will have haste up on round 1.

 

[comrade raoul]

I wonder whether the intent of the maneuver is to only allow characters to move who haven't yet taken their actions for the round--thus, if A's initiative count is 15, and the warblade's initiative count is 10, and B's initiative count is 5, the warblade could use WRT to get B to go immediately after the warblade, but couldn't use WRT with A. So construed, WRT is still a useful and significant maneuver, isn't it?

In any case, that's the house-rule I'd use.