Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
Anyone notice the Sage has declared that with two weapons of Speed, only one of them gets an extra attack in a round? That makes TWF even less appealing...
-Hyp.
-Hyp.
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2 Short Swords or 1 Great Sword?
- Thread starter demon_jr
- Start date
magnas_veritas
First Post
Hypersmurf said:
Really? That's odd. I guess the Quarterstaff of Alacrity from ELH (speed on both ends) is illegal, then. Or maybe it gets a pass because it's a double weapon, not two weapons.
Brad
ConcreteBuddha
First Post
Re: TWF vs THW
Sneak attack is not the only way to make TWF effective. You are not taking into account the extra damage from Weapon Specialization, the extra damage from another enhancement bonus, and Improved TWF/Greater TWF.
If the original poster wants to go with the two short swords, I'd suggest they get Weapon Specialization as soon as possible. Also, a fellow caster dropping GMW on both of your swords is the way to go. Also, I'd sell the greatsword and enchant the short swords with keen.
Obviously, the only way to milk this for all it's worth is if you are eventually going to have buckets of feats. (You'll need WF, WS, Imp. TWF, G. TWF, Imp. Crit., Twin Sword [FRCS]: 6 feats. So at least four levels of fighter is a must. You may just need to stay as a fighter forever, anyway.)
Besides, sneak attack, though great overall, is not necessarily good for your character. Taking 1-5 levels in Rogue drops your BAB (which you really don't need to drop any further) while only increasing your damage if you flank (which means you have to be on the opposite side of the bad guys. Which means you are surrounded by bad guys with a mediocre AC [due to lack of shield] and lower hps [due to Rogue]. Bad idea.)
But seriously, though, TWF is just as effective, if not more effective than a two-handed weapon fighting. Having 2 attacks at level 1, 3 attacks at level 6, 4 attacks at level 9, 5 attacks at level 11, 6 attacks at level 15, and 7 attacks at level 16 is rather neat.
And you may be tempted to get Weapon Finesse and only boost your Dexterity. Don't do that. The max your Dex needs to be is a natural 16. Add a +6 enhancement bonus to Dex to max out a mithral chain shirt, and away you go. (Or you could go with a mithral breastplate and a +4 enhancement bonus to Dex. Your choice.)
[Side note: I'm assuming you got the Amb/TWF from Ranger. If so, put a 14 into Dex and wear a mithral breastplate. Less points in point buy then.]
Put all of your level advancement ability points into Str. (Which is what your TH buddy is doing. You'll probably lag about 4 points behind. Doesn't matter. The extra attacks, WS, GMW, and crits will make up for it; not including the fact that you can hit with a bow when necessary.)
Dursk Starkfire said:
Sneak attack is not the only way to make TWF effective. You are not taking into account the extra damage from Weapon Specialization, the extra damage from another enhancement bonus, and Improved TWF/Greater TWF.
If the original poster wants to go with the two short swords, I'd suggest they get Weapon Specialization as soon as possible. Also, a fellow caster dropping GMW on both of your swords is the way to go. Also, I'd sell the greatsword and enchant the short swords with keen.
Obviously, the only way to milk this for all it's worth is if you are eventually going to have buckets of feats. (You'll need WF, WS, Imp. TWF, G. TWF, Imp. Crit., Twin Sword [FRCS]: 6 feats. So at least four levels of fighter is a must. You may just need to stay as a fighter forever, anyway.)
Besides, sneak attack, though great overall, is not necessarily good for your character. Taking 1-5 levels in Rogue drops your BAB (which you really don't need to drop any further) while only increasing your damage if you flank (which means you have to be on the opposite side of the bad guys. Which means you are surrounded by bad guys with a mediocre AC [due to lack of shield] and lower hps [due to Rogue]. Bad idea.)
But seriously, though, TWF is just as effective, if not more effective than a two-handed weapon fighting. Having 2 attacks at level 1, 3 attacks at level 6, 4 attacks at level 9, 5 attacks at level 11, 6 attacks at level 15, and 7 attacks at level 16 is rather neat.
And you may be tempted to get Weapon Finesse and only boost your Dexterity. Don't do that. The max your Dex needs to be is a natural 16. Add a +6 enhancement bonus to Dex to max out a mithral chain shirt, and away you go. (Or you could go with a mithral breastplate and a +4 enhancement bonus to Dex. Your choice.)
[Side note: I'm assuming you got the Amb/TWF from Ranger. If so, put a 14 into Dex and wear a mithral breastplate. Less points in point buy then.]
Put all of your level advancement ability points into Str. (Which is what your TH buddy is doing. You'll probably lag about 4 points behind. Doesn't matter. The extra attacks, WS, GMW, and crits will make up for it; not including the fact that you can hit with a bow when necessary.)
Last edited:
Hypersmurf
Moderatarrrrh...
http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=dragon/sage
05/06/2002
The description for the speed weapon property says it is not cumulative with the haste spell, but exactly how this applies in the game seems unclear to me. What does it mean? What if you have two speed weapons?
If you attack with two weapons of speed, you get one extra attack for one of the weapons (the speed property does not stack with itself). You can't combine haste and speed at all. Use the extra attack for the speed property or use the extra action from haste, not both.
07/08/2002
The description for the speed weapon property says it is not cumulative with the haste spell, but exactly how this applies in the game seems unclear, especially when two weapons or speed are involved. Can you use two speed weapons at the same time? What, exactly, is meant when the rules say haste and speed don’t stack? Does it mean you can use the speed property during the normal portion of your turn, but not during the “extra” partial action you get from haste?
You can use two weapons of speed at a time all right, but you still only get one extra attack, from one weapon or the other, not both. If you are under the effects of a haste spell, you can use the extra action attack from one weapon of speed, or the extra partial action form the haste spell, but not both.
No idea if these came before or after yours...
-Hyp.
05/06/2002
The description for the speed weapon property says it is not cumulative with the haste spell, but exactly how this applies in the game seems unclear to me. What does it mean? What if you have two speed weapons?
If you attack with two weapons of speed, you get one extra attack for one of the weapons (the speed property does not stack with itself). You can't combine haste and speed at all. Use the extra attack for the speed property or use the extra action from haste, not both.
07/08/2002
The description for the speed weapon property says it is not cumulative with the haste spell, but exactly how this applies in the game seems unclear, especially when two weapons or speed are involved. Can you use two speed weapons at the same time? What, exactly, is meant when the rules say haste and speed don’t stack? Does it mean you can use the speed property during the normal portion of your turn, but not during the “extra” partial action you get from haste?
You can use two weapons of speed at a time all right, but you still only get one extra attack, from one weapon or the other, not both. If you are under the effects of a haste spell, you can use the extra action attack from one weapon of speed, or the extra partial action form the haste spell, but not both.
No idea if these came before or after yours...
-Hyp.
Li Shenron
Legend
What about finding a spellcaster to polymorph you into a girallon and try wielding them all?
Thanks for the replies so far.
Well, I have been wielding the +2 Thundering Greatsword for quite some time. The +2 shortswords have been a very recent addition from last game session.
I have not really used my dual-wielding abilities since I have not recently come accross any magical one-handed weapons to my liking. The ones that did, did not really fit the way I envision my character. The closest ones are the short swords.
Now that the +2 short swords have been made available, I am wondering about getting some use out of my dual-wielding ability.
Well, I have been wielding the +2 Thundering Greatsword for quite some time. The +2 shortswords have been a very recent addition from last game session.
I have not really used my dual-wielding abilities since I have not recently come accross any magical one-handed weapons to my liking. The ones that did, did not really fit the way I envision my character. The closest ones are the short swords.
Now that the +2 short swords have been made available, I am wondering about getting some use out of my dual-wielding ability.
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
The twin shortswords are inferior in the following situations:
Whenever you get an AoO
Whenever you make a charge attack
Whenever you Spring Attack
Whenever you move and attack (as against taking a full attack).
The only situation when they are better is if you need a 20 to hit the target, and he has only 1 hp left... because you get two chances to roll that 20
TWF would, IMO, be a viable option if it didn't cost any feats to even attempt it. As it stands though... there are so many situations where it is clearly sub-optimal (mostly because of the way the full attack mechanic works).
Cheers
Whenever you get an AoO
Whenever you make a charge attack
Whenever you Spring Attack
Whenever you move and attack (as against taking a full attack).
The only situation when they are better is if you need a 20 to hit the target, and he has only 1 hp left... because you get two chances to roll that 20
TWF would, IMO, be a viable option if it didn't cost any feats to even attempt it. As it stands though... there are so many situations where it is clearly sub-optimal (mostly because of the way the full attack mechanic works).
Cheers
Plane Sailing
Astral Admin - Mwahahaha!
Hypersmurf said:
Good old Sage... nothing like eliminating the +4 equivalent benefit of a weapon, eh?
Next thing he'll be ruling that when TWF with two vorpal swords only one of them can be getting the vorpal effect at any one time
</ sarcasm >
