2 wildshape/polymorph feats

[apesamongus]

Two possible feats for shape shifters, but I can't think of what the prerequisites should be.

Burly Shape
Prereq. Ability to assume alternate forms through either a spell, spell like ability, or class feature.

When taking an alternate form, the character may become slightly larger and stronger version of the form, instead of the "average" version of that creature type.

Effect: When in alternate form, the character has +2 Strength, +2 Constitution, and -2 Dexterity compared to an average creature of that type.



Massive Shape
Prereq. Ability to assume alternate forms through either a spell, spell like ability, or class feature. Burly Shape.

When taking an alternate form, the character may become a significantly larger and stronger version of the form, instead of an "average" version of that creature type.

Effect: When in alternate form, the creature form may have it's size increased by one size category, with the normal effects of a size change. This new size must still be within the normal limits for the shapeshifting ability.

There should definately be some additional prerequisites, but BAB doesn't make sense, and I can't think of anything else.

 

[Dimwhit]

Hmm, I like them, but Massive Shape might be a little powerful. Just thinking of my current Druid. He's massively tough in combat now. Massive Shape would make it insane.

For prereqs, make it a Wild Shape requirement. For Burly Shape, the character must be able to Wild Shape into a Large animal (or equivalent for other classes). For Massive Shape, they must be able to shape into a Huge animal.

Doesn't help Wizards with Polymorph, though. But it's a thought.

 

[apesamongus]

Hmm, I like them, but Massive Shape might be a little powerful. Just thinking of my current Druid. He's massively tough in combat now. Massive Shape would make it insane.

Not having played a druid, I haven't put a lot of effort into figuring out what they can and can't turn into, but doesn't the size limitation kind of stop this from being too overpowered.

I mean, when you can turn into a huge animal, you could, instead, use this feat to turn into a huge version of a large animal. I'm just not sure if that adds significantly to power or just offers more versatility. Is there any example you can think of where it would be a significant advantage?

 

[Dimwhit]

Well, when you look at the number of Huge animals available for wildshaping, there just aren't many. The Elephant is the only one that comes to mind. My Druid enjoys the Dire Bear form for pure power. It's a Large animal. As it is, I do more damage in a round on a very regular basis than any fighter of the same level. Being able to shape into a Huge Dire Bear would make him that much tougher with a better bonus to hit and damage. And at that same time, I can't think of a regular Huge animal that could come close to being that tough. Elephant aren't, for example.

I'm not saying it's a game breaker, but it's something to consider. The downside for the character, of course, is that being in a Huge form is a royal pain in the butt if you're anywhere but in wide open spaces, so maybe that's a good counterbalance.

 

[apesamongus]

Well, when you look at the number of Huge animals available for wildshaping, there just aren't many. The Elephant is the only one that comes to mind. My Druid enjoys the Dire Bear form for pure power. It's a Large animal. As it is, I do more damage in a round on a very regular basis than any fighter of the same level. Being able to shape into a Huge Dire Bear would make him that much tougher with a better bonus to hit and damage. And at that same time, I can't think of a regular Huge animal that could come close to being that tough. Elephant aren't, for example.

Yea, that's why I asked, I was wondering if something like this would be the case.

What about if it weren't an actual size increase, but were treated more like an Enlarge person spell layered on top of the shapechange, giving just +2 str, -2 dex and reach increase. The net effect (after taking size change penalties into account) would be +1 damage, -2 AC (and -1 ref saves), natural weapon damage increase, and (in most cases) an extra 5' reach.

Now, even as a single feat, I worry that might be a little weak. I wonder if it might be better as "Versatile Shape" which would allow either a larger version of the creature (enlarge person effect) OR a smaller version (reduce person effect). Or maybe it's still fine as a whole feat just to enlarge.

 

[Dimwhit]

That could work, but don't underestimate the power and advantage of reach. I'm taking the Warshaper prestige class in large part because at one of the levels I'll have reach while Wildshaped. That's incredibly tough because a natural weapon with reach threatens ALL squares within 5' or 10'. That's a lot of threatening space. On the other hand, it could be a nice feat, one that maybe requires a use of wildshape to activate.

If you wanted to do two feats like you listed, maybe have the first give the effect of Enlarge (bonus to str) and the second give reach. I dont' know, that probably wouldn't be worth it.

I'd be interested in playtesting that. Just make one feat and give +2 str, -2 dex and an extra 5' of reach. That's a feat I'd take, but I think it would be borderline too powerful. Maybe not.

 

[Angel Tarragon]

Interestingly enough, these feats somehow reminded me of lycanthrope's ability to assume a hybrid form. Then I got to thinking: Would it be wrong to design a feat that would allow druids to assume a hybrid form as well? Or should I just house rule it?

What I mean to say is: would it be a waste of a feat to allow a druid to assume hybrid forms?

 

[Tetsubo]

Interestingly enough, these feats somehow reminded me of lycanthrope's ability to assume a hybrid form. Then I got to thinking: Would it be wrong to design a feat that would allow druids to assume a hybrid form as well? Or should I just house rule it?

What I mean to say is: would it be a waste of a feat to allow a druid to assume hybrid forms?

I think that would be a cool idea actually.

Another idea: A feat that would allow the Druid to assume an advanced form, i.e. a Dire Wolf with more HD, etc...

 

[DSC-EricPrice]

Would it be wrong to design a feat that would allow druids to assume a hybrid form as well? Or should I just house rule it?

What I mean to say is: would it be a waste of a feat to allow a druid to assume hybrid forms?

I hope not. We included just such a feat in Guardians of the Underhalls, although we DID make it an EPIC level feat.

Avatar’s Form (Epic)
You are a master of nature’s many forms. You may blend them together to make a more formidable opponent or to meet an unusual need.
Prerequisite: Epic Deep Druid
Benefit: Each time you take this feat you may add one non standard attribute to your wild shape form. A characteristic of any other natural or elemental form the you have wild shaped into before may be added to your current shifted form. Typical uses include webbed paws (for swimming), wings (for flying), antlers (for an additional gore attack), or even the earth subtype (to make an earthen animal).

Why EPIC? The only reason is because at the point that you add such an evolutionary attribute to a natural animal we thought you were REALLY straining the balance and feel for a NATURAL protector that the druid represents. One need only think of a flying dire bear (or, how about a flying gargantuan dire elephant?) to realize another reason we thought the feat needed to be epic.

Along those same lines of a natural balance and order the suggested feats to enlarge a creature (basically advance it beyond its natural abilities) seems dangerous. Its a good idea, but it DEFINITELY needs to have a prereq that says you cant assume a form thats larger than your druidic powers otherwise allow, otherwise the ability to get huge and larger forms is obviously diminished somewhat.