20 Attacks a round =)

[Celtavian]

re

Whirlwind Attack and Awsome Blow used by a giant or titan fighter is going to be a truly awsome display of power. I bet the designer who made this change was watching the start of the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring when he made the changes.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

Re: Re: 20 Attacks a round =)

A) In 3.5 Whirlwind attack precludes any extra attacks from feats like TWF or cleave. You can only use one weapon to attack with. (Simple fix: Use a spiked chain instead of two weapons)

Note that TWF doesn't grant an extra attack. TWF lessens the penalties for using two weapons.

Whirlwind Attack and Awsome Blow used by a giant or titan fighter is going to be a truly awsome display of power. I bet the designer who made this change was watching the start of the beginning of The Fellowship of the Ring when he made the changes.

Of the Burly Brawl in Reloaded.

 

[DonAdam]

6th level fighter (preferrably dwarven, since they are gods now), enlarged with a spiked chain. You can get up to 48 attacks in 6 seconds.

While the 48 number is inflated, what's not inflated is this: a character that's not twinked out at all (1 exotic weapon + 1 spell) can probably attack most of the enemies in a combat in one round at 6th level, every round.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

 

[hong]

6th level fighter (preferrably dwarven, since they are gods now), enlarged with a spiked chain. You can get up to 48 attacks in 6 seconds.

While the 48 number is inflated, what's not inflated is this: a character that's not twinked out at all (1 exotic weapon + 1 spell) can probably attack most of the enemies in a combat in one round at 6th level, every round.

Stupid, stupid, stupid.

I agree. The same fighter could have taken Great Cleave, and done it from 4th level.

Can we get back to whinging about the keen/Improved Crit thing now?

 

[DonAdam]

I lied. I forgot about Enlarge increasing facing to 10x10. That makes it 60 squares threatened.

And it's not comparable to Great Cleave, because you don't have to drop someone with every shot.

The face/reach possibilities with Enlarge are ridiculous to begin with, but the WA change and the Spiked Chain make it way over the top.

 

[hong]

I lied. I forgot about Enlarge increasing facing to 10x10. That makes it 60 squares threatened.

If you're facing 60 mooks neatly arranged in a group with a hole in the middle, that's not where you put an enlarged fighter. That's where you drop a blast spell.

And it's not comparable to Great Cleave, because you don't have to drop someone with every shot.

And if you _don't_ drop someone in D&D, they get to hit you back, without any penalties to their attacks. Doing a bit of damage to a lot of people is generally a bad option compared to doing enough damage to take down a few people. Or did you somehow forget that little tidbit of information about D&D's combat system, which has been constant for, oh, 25 years or so?

The face/reach possibilities with Enlarge are ridiculous to begin with, but the WA change and the Spiked Chain make it way over the top.

Yes, dearie. Consider playing the game sometime before bleating about it.

 

[DonAdam]

You know you're arguing with a half-witted buffoon when you have to begin by quoting what you actually said...

That makes it 60 squares threatened.

I was complaining about the threatened area. That's constant whether there are guys there are not. The area in itself is a problem, esp. with Combat Reflexes and Whirlwind attack.

The point is that, for most D&D-sized skirmishes, you'll be able to attack most or all of the enemies every round.

And if you _don't_ drop someone in D&D, they get to hit you back, without any penalties to their attacks. Doing a bit of damage to a lot of people is generally a bad option compared to doing enough damage to take down a few people. Or did you somehow forget that little tidbit of information about D&D's combat system, which has been constant for, oh, 25 years or so?

This analysis doesn't affect anything I've said about Great Cleave. Cleave in no way gives you the ability to do enough damage to take out a few people any more than whirlwind attack.

But I guess it's more important for you to be contrary than actually make arguments against my points.

Yes, dearie. Consider playing the game sometime before bleating about it.

Then all of your analysis is bunk as well, silly Austrian.

 

[hong]

You know you're arguing with a half-witted buffoon when you have to begin by quoting what you actually said...

No, you know you're arguing with a half-witted buffoon when said quotes don't actually support their argument.

I was complaining about the threatened area.

Of course you were. That's why you decided to mention WWA, as well the priceless tidbit "you can get up to 48 attacks in 6 seconds". You were NOT trolling, not at all.

That's constant whether there are guys there are not. The area in itself is a problem, esp. with Combat Reflexes and Whirlwind attack.

Then your problem is with reach weapons and/or spells that make you bigger. Making a whirlwind attack is, if anything, often a _bad_ option because you're distributing all your attacks among a bunch of targets, instead of dealing enough damage to take down any one of them.

The point is that, for most D&D-sized skirmishes, you'll be able to attack most or all of the enemies every round.

I don't know about you, but for most people, the hordes of 1HD mooks stop appearing once you get to, oh, 6th level or so. Clearly things are different for those who are in the position of not having played the game, and are thus qualified to comment from a unique, unbiased perspective.

This analysis doesn't affect anything I've said about Great Cleave. Cleave in no way gives you the ability to do enough damage to take out a few people any more than whirlwind attack.

Exactly. Both GC and WWA are useless past a certain point. By the time you can drop 60 mooks with any reliability, you're not likely to be fighting those mooks anymore.

But I guess it's more important for you to be contrary than actually make arguments against my points.

First, you have to present an argument worthy of the name.

Then all of your analysis is bunk as well, silly Austrian.

No, inane rejoinders is MY schtick, as I keep having to remind people. What IS it with people always STEALING MY SCHTICK?

 

[Kae'Yoss]

I don't believe this: There's a row where hong is involved and I actually feel like backing him....

DonAdam: Stop insulting people! Even if they don't agree with you. Hong's comments weren't exactly nice but this time it was not him who crossed the line.


As for the issue: It isn't so bad: The dwarf will threaten 4 squares, so even if he is toe to toe with the melee guys, the archers will be out of reach as they will be another square or two away. Spellcasters will be even further back, for they need not stay in sneak attack or point blank shot range. And any ogre can do this without magic, which means that his "stupid tactic" cannot be dispelled.

 

[Mearlin]

I've always been partial to Cleave and Great Cleave over whirlwind attack. WWA becomes useless because if you're surrounded by guys and you could kill them with WWA, they aren't a problem. If you can't kill them with WWA, you want them out as quickly as possible. C and GC allow you to do this, while at the same time occasionally granting you a few extra attacks.

The cleaves allow you to attack normally, while granting you a possibly devastating extra attack. Against powerful opponents, this can be invaluable. Having played no less than six fighters, I've never seen fit to choose WWA, and have chose cleave for four of them.