D&D 5E (2014) 2024 D&D is 2014 D&D with 4E sprinkled on top

[EzekielRaiden]

here you go

This does not indicate what you think it indicates.

 

[mamba]

This does not indicate what you think it indicates.

it sounded like it matched the original claim to me. Not sure where you see the difference

 

[EzekielRaiden]

it sounded like it matched the original claim to me. Not sure where you see the difference

Being the favorite defender does not mean a class is only a defender.

Further, I specifically noted that Fighter was only challenged for being the favorite class in general by Warlord, which is, for many people, an extremely closely allied thematical concept--and, in the earliest editions of D&D, the two would have been seen as two sides of the same coin.

In order for your citation to mean what you want it to mean, you would need to have caught me saying that Fighters cannot ever be anything other than Defenders. I did not say that; moreover, I would not ever say that. Because it's simply, factually untrue.

A person being trained as a lawyer does not somehow make it impossible for them to do anything else other than practicing law. I am a musician, technically speaking; does that mean I am only capable of playing music and nothing else, because I have learned the fundamentals of reading, writing, and playing music?

A Fighter naturally has the fundamental elements of a Defender. You can choose to be many other things--and among those things is, yes, an absolute DPR powerhouse. It won't be as efficient as if you had started from somewhere else...but there's nothing wrong with choosing a path less than perfect laser-precision efficiency.

 

[Aldarc]

I always encourage designing your own thing. It is a good exercise, IMO, even if you never actually use it. I hope to get around to my 5e hybrid that incorporates some more 4e isms at some point, but I have been saying that for years. If I do, I plan to have only 4 classes (I think) and handle most everything through subclasses. So you have:

Warrior (Simple Martial)

• Fighter
• Barbarian

There are a good number of times where I wonder whether a lot of video games have the right idea about just combining the Fighter and the Barbarian. A number of Warrior* classes in these games have rage/adrenaline mechanics. So maybe the distinction should be between the Barbarian and the Knight.

* insert your video game's nomenclature here

 

[Pedantic]

There are a good number of times where I wonder whether a lot of video games have the right idea about just combining the Fighter and the Barbarian. A number of Warrior* classes in these games have rage/adrenaline mechanics. So maybe the distinction should be between the Barbarian and the Knight.

* insert your video game's nomenclature here

You could also maybe split out a Weaponmaster. Fighter is a uniquely limiting archetype, almost entirely defined by what hasn't been carved out of it by other classes.

 

[Aldarc]

You could also maybe split out a Weaponmaster. Fighter is a uniquely limiting archetype, almost entirely defined by what hasn't been carved out of it by other classes.

If I could, I would scuttle both the fighter and wizard. I think both strangle too much design space as a result of being, respectively, the legacy generic warrior and mage.

 

[Lord Twig]

2 hp/level is not really the big difference you seem to think it is. Lessee - second wind, AT MOST, grants me 5 more attacks. A 5th level caster can easily make 10 attacks in a single round. Why does a fighter have to wait fifteen levels to be equal to do what a 5th level caster can?

And note, like I said, this example of a caster is the bare minimum of what a caster can do. This is FAR weaker than an actual caster. By miles. But, the notion that a fighter could do what a massively nerfed sorcerer could do is "making them sorcerers" pretty much explains why fighter types cannot EVER be allowed any sort of parity.

Also explains why, in 10 years of 5e D&D, I've still yet to see a single classed fighter beyond, say 5th level. Not once. Always paired up with caster classes. I dunno who is playing all these fighters but it sure isn't the groups that I play with.

I think you meant Action Surge granting extra attacks, but I don't know where you are getting casters having 10 attacks from. Maybe because they have AoE attacks? Whatever it is, I doubt it would match what a melee Barbarian, Fighter, Paladin, etc., can do in terms of Single Target damage, which is held up as the gold standard for effectiveness in battle by a lot of optimizers. Spell casters are good at control and making the fight easier for the classes that actually take out the bad guys. Which are the martial characters.

And you only listed hit points and Action Surge. You ignored all of the fighter's other abilities. If you want to give Fighters caster like spell power, you have to remove everything else to make them balanced. In general, casters only have magic. They have spells, abilities that give them more spells or make their spells better, and maybe a few side magical abilities.

If you give martials abilities equal to casters, you either have to either get rid of their other abilities, or give caster the martial abilities.

And I can't help thinking that we already have a version of D&D that did that. I can understand advocating for adding things you like from a previous version into the new version, but it sounds like you just want to turn 5e into 4e.

 

[Pedantic]

If I could, I would scuttle both the fighter and wizard. I think both strangle too much design space as a result of being, respectively, the legacy generic warrior and mage.

Absolutely, the wizard has exactly the opposite problem. Fighter gets smaller with every other martial class, and already has to be small to cope with it's lack of archetypal power source. Wizard is too broad, and prevents any specific caster from having very specific identities and specialized powers.

You could honestly still keep it very D&D by using the specialist wizards as the base classes.

 

[CreamCloud0]

Considering that rage lets you actually FLY, I'd say it's very, very supernatural. That's the hillarious thing. The notion that a fighter could swing his weapon so hard that he flies is absolutely impossible. But, my guy getting so angry he can literally fly in to a rage (heh) is no problem whatsoever.

But, I mentioned this earlier about what if you had a caster with a list of 20 spells total for their spells, same as a Battlemaster has only 20 maneuvers. Let's split that up over 9 levels:

1st (4 spells) - Expeditious Retreat, Jump, Shield, Thunderwave
2nd (4 spells) - Alter Self, Invisibility, Knock, Scorching Ray
3rd (3 spells) - Fear, Fly, Fireball
4th (3 spells) - Charm Monster, Stoneskin, Ice Storm
5th (2 spells) - Cloudkill, Telekinesis
6th-9th, 1 spell/level. - Circle of Death, Plane Shift, Earthquake, Meteor Storm

((Note, taken from the 2024 Sorcerer spell list))

Now, there's the benchmarks. That's what a fighter should be able to do, without magic, although a supernatural or whatever you want to call it source is fine. No actual spells. Just using his weapon/spirit/whatever, the fighter or rogue can duplicate THOSE effects. So, instead of needing to be 14th level to fly, our fighter can do it at 5th. Our fighter can slam the ground so hard to cause earthquakes at 15th. So on and so forth.

If we're going to get class parity, this is what needs to happen. Or, we need to drastically reduce what a caster can do. Either way.

considering martials tend to lean more into passive/resourceless boons here's how i might equate some of those to what a fighter might get,

1st (4 spells) - Expeditious Retreat,

Quick Step(passive) - base movespeed +10ft

Jump,

Athletic(passive) - double your height and distance when calculating jumping, gain a climb and swim speed equal to half your walkspeed

Shield,

Defence(ability) - use your BA to defend, increasing your AC equal to your PB to the start of your next turn

Thunderwave

Clear Some Space(ability) - all adjacent creatures make a STR saving throw to resist being pushed 10ft away(no damage),

2nd (4 spells) - Alter Self,

Rank and File(passive) - you have advantage to gain information from or pass yourself off as part of other groups of guards or knights, or as a noble while wearing noble's clothes

Invisibility,

Greased and Padded(passive/toggleable) - remove any disadvantage on stealth your armour applies or gain advantage if it does not, your movespeed is halved while doing this, note, this is not cancelling out your disadvantage but removing it and therefore means you can gain advantage.

Knock,

Bend Bars, Break Barrels(passive) - you have advantage on checks to destroy or manipulate your environment by force

Scorching Ray

Burning Blade(ability) - you ignite your weapon and the next PB times you hit your target catches on fire, your attacks deal fire damage until this effect ends, struck targets take 1d6 fire damage at the end of their turn per hit until they or an ally use their action to remove one stack of ongoing fire

3rd (3 spells) - Fear,

Fearsome Weaponry(ability) - make an intimidation check to inflict Fear condition on PB enemies within 30ft who can perceive you, roll weapon damage+MOD, you can distribute the resulting damage as additional modifiers between your intimidation checks

Fly,

Hang Time(passive) - when you take the jump action you can choose to gain an additional turn of airborne movement before you land at the end of your next turn, you cannot change the direction you were travelling in unless you collide with a solid object such as a wall or flying enemy, if you were affected by the jump spell increase the duration to two turns.

Fireball

Blitz Attack(ability) - take a full attack action against every enemy within a 10ft radius of you

4th (3 spells) - Charm Monster,

Biggest Threat(ability) - after you manage to hit a creature you can force them to focus on you, they have disadvantage on attacks made against other creatures, at the end of their turn they can make a WIS save to end this effect, if they succeed they are immune for 1d4 rounds.

Stoneskin,

Master Defense(passive) - while not wearing armour you have a passive AC of 11+CON or DEX, while wearing armour you gain an additional +2 AC from it, shields provide an additional +1.

Ice Storm

Reaching Control(passive) - enemies within a 10ft radius of you must move as if in difficult terrain otherwise you get to make an opportunity attack as a free action.

The following spells i didn't think were especially good picks to equate to abilities a fighter might get so i've swapped them out for others of the same levels i think might fit better

5th (2 spells) - Cloudkill, Hold Monster

By the Scruff(passive) - you have advantage on checks to grapple a creature or to maintain a grapple, you may grapple creatures up to two sizes larger than you, your movement speed is not reduced unless you are dragging a creature two sizes larger than yourself, you have advantage on intimidation checks to creatures you have grappled.

Telekinesis, Skill empowerment

Master Combatant(passive) - you gain an additional bonus to your to-hit equal to 1/2 PB on all your attacks, alternately you can gain your full PB to a single attack that turn

6th-9th, 1 spell/level. - Circle of Death, Move Earth

Shape Landscape(ability) - this is mostly the same as Move Earth, but takes an hour and can affect constructed stone (though it is turned to rubble in the process)

Plane Shift, Forcecage

Fearsome Presence(ability) - all enemies in a 25ft cube either centred on you (as of using the ability) or up to 25ft away are considered restrained until the end of your next turn.

Earthquake, Antimagic Field

Arcane Resistance - you gain magical resistance, spells and magical effects have disadvantage against you/you have advantage to save, magical effects do not impede your movement.

Meteor Storm, Time Stop

Greater Surge(ability-reaction) - you can trigger this ability whenever a creture ends a turn, you can take a full turn's worth of actions.

 

[Hussar]

My group has 3 fighters, two rogues, and a wizard. All at level 15, all single classed. I can't speak for others, but my group is having a blast!

Dude. I am so jealous. The only way I got a pc group that looked like that was outright banning full casters.

The group before was 5 pcs, 4 full casters and one half caster. Every group I’ve played in or DM’d has had at least 3 of the 5 characters be full casters.

Heck we just started a new campaign in my evening group that I play in. Warlock, sorcerer, Druid, and my monk.

To say I’m very, very tired of casters in DnD is a bloody understatement.