D&D (2024) 2024 Monster Manual Fiends and Elementals Are Coming This Week

[Azzy]

If halflings are Fiends, then what does that make kender?

Aberrations.

 

[Parmandur]

We know Aacrokra are Elementals now.

The only things in these that really interest me are Elemental Cataclysm, Incubi, Succubi, and if they bring it up again Empyreans family given they can be Fiends or Celestial (great idea and yet embarrassingly under used).

Turns out Merfolk and Lizardfolk also got added to Elementals, while Sahuagin and Jackelweres are Fiends now, so theynmay something about those.

 

[bergec]

Turns out Merfolk and Lizardfolk also got added to Elementals, while Sahuagin and Jackelweres are Fiends now, so theynmay something about those.

Worth noting that most Lizardfolk are humanoids (see the conversion guide's conversion of Lizardfolk to Scout). It does have two Lizardfolk variants that are elementals, but specifies that this is due to ties to the Elemental Plane of Earth through exposure or pact.

 

[InkTide]

Turns out Merfolk and Lizardfolk also got added to Elementals, while Sahuagin and Jackelweres are Fiends now, so theynmay something about those.

Sahuagin, the angry fish people, are now... fiends? Is this entirely because of the 'sea devils' nickname?

I don't like nominative determinism at the best of times but between this and the Purple Dragon Knight I'm discovering an immense distaste for retroactive nominative determinism. If it's a problem, just... change the name.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Sahuagin, the angry fish people, are now... fiends? Is this entirely because of the 'sea devils' nickname?

I don't like nominative determinism at the best of times but between this and the Purple Dragon Knight I'm discovering an immense distaste for retroactive nominative determinism. If it's a problem, just... change the name.

Their deity Sekolah has always resided in one of the layers of the Nine Hells (Stygia, to be exact), so it's not a huge stretch.

 

[Charlaquin]

That one will be interesting to see the logic.

Probably the same as lizardfolk. The entire species aren’t elementals, just the ones that have spent too long in places that are heavily influenced by their respective elemental planes, which rubbed off on them. Those are the ones represented by the monster stat blocks. But there are also humanoid lizardfolk and aarakocra, and they’re represented by NPC stat blocks, like all humanoids are.

 

[Charlaquin]

If halflings are Fiends, then what does that make kender?

Friends

 

[InkTide]

Their deity Sekolah has always resided in one of the layers of the Nine Hells (Stygia, to be exact), so it's not a huge stretch.

I did not know that. However... I feel like it's diluting the accepted meaning of 'fiend' in 5e cosmology to apply it to a species native to and living on the PMP. Kurtulmak's in Avernus (IIRC) and that doesn't make kobolds fiends.

Unless sahuagins being native to the PMP is also being changed to better accommodate the retroactive nominative determinism of 'sea devils.'

Probably the same as lizardfolk. The entire species aren’t elementals, just the ones that have spent too long in places that are heavily influenced by their respective elemental planes, which rubbed off on them. Those are the ones represented by the monster stat blocks. But there are also humanoid lizardfolk and aarakocra, and they’re represented by NPC stat blocks, like all humanoids are.

I'm disliking this 'personhood requires diluting your species' native essence on the PMP' and/or 'standing next to a portal to the EPoW for too long un-persons you' angle for the humanoid type in the MM more and more. I just... don't see this theming surviving contact with the broader playerbase's concerns and desires, after they stop to think about what it means for characters rather than what it means for PCs as game pieces. Why have they created such a bizarre dichotomy, with such deeply unpleasant implications? Are they genuinely oblivious?

And literally all of this would be solved by dual typing, but oh well, got to kludge around the grammar of a couple of spells with wording that happens to treat types as singular categories rather than tags, I guess.

Am I just yelling at a windmill here? I could've sworn it had the 'giant' type....

Perhaps instead to solve this we remove the humanoid type from the game and make all playable species dragons, in accordance with the name of the game. Only then will we achieve true nominative determinism.

 

[Demetrios1453]

Friends

They'll be there for you...

(And your possessions as well!)

 

[Charlaquin]

I'm disliking this 'personhood requires diluting your species' native essence on the PMP' and/or 'standing next to a portal to the EPoW for too long un-persons you' angle for the humanoid type in the MM more and more. I just... don't see this theming surviving contact with the broader playerbase's concerns and desires, after they stop to think about what it means for characters rather than what it means for PCs as game pieces. Why have they created such a bizarre dichotomy, with such deeply unpleasant implications? Are they genuinely oblivious?

Frankly? Because there just isn’t any tenable way to draw a line in the sand between sapient creatures and say “the sanctity of these ones lives matters, and those ones don’t” that won’t have these unpleasant implications. But WotC can’t accept that. Violence is central to their game, but they want to maintain a family-friendly image, so they can’t really allow the game to acknowledge the moral and ethical nuance involved in meting out that violence. So they have to come up with some excuse, any excuse, to say it’s fine to kill the monsters.