$20K (or a possible 120K) for your soul?

[DragonDroid]

Re: Erik has the right idea here...

Money is no object (except when someone offers a million or so bucks) when it comes to creating. Control is what I want. If I had no control on what I write when it gets published, I would never have even tried to be a writer. If I wanted only the money (see mearls's post on how little money freelancers get), I would have desparately tried to get on "Survivor" instead. That is all I have to say.

Final replies (can't get EVERYONE, sorry):

mmadsen: I would get nothing, but I still have my idea and full control of it.

Much of it is "what if". If I DO get the 120k and the job, all of the novels I write (for WoTC) in the future will always be published, for better or for worse. It's a great deal, no doubt about it, but I'm not sure if I can be the one big guy who wins it all. I'm being realistic here.

BTW, WoTC DOES want you to hand over all your rights to the work if you want to net the 20K. Read the fine print. But I'll worry about that when I become one of the top ten (er, three).

Lady Dragon:
I COULD change the names, but it wouldn't have the same "feel".

I really fail to see how someone who:

1. has never published a single written work

and

2. hasn't even finished the first draft of a single novel

could realistically know 95% of diddly squat, let alone the writing market.

This entire thread has been about nothing but absurd egotism and I, for one, am finally sick of it.

Take your delusions of grandeur elsewhere, please.

-F

Seriously, Femerus (and anyone else), ask me anything about writing and I will give it to you (except for the formula for the Great American Novel, let alone a publishable novel, which I do not know). C'mon, I dare ya! You can e-mail your questions to Coolnut99@aol.com, as I am opting to close this thread (everything that has been said has been said by now, at least, for me). I apologize if I'm being egotistical about the 95%/5% part, but it is how I feel about knowing what to do.

KNOWING and DOING are two different things. I'd better be DOING, right? There are tons who know 99% while still unpublished, while there are some who know far less and get repeatedly published. Knowing means jack **** when anyone writes (except for writing "well"). Doing is the only thing that counts. I know that already.

Hmmm... I'm feeling a flame war coming. Between what I said and what they said, I'm open to close this post. Any more questions, my e-mail is on this reply.

 

[SHARK]

Greetings!

Wow! I think it comes down to a simple equation. I fully agree with my friend mmadsen--you took the words right out of my mouth!--and LadyDragon as well. There's something to be said for maintaining one's absolute creative rights--but one must realise that becoming a professional game-designer and writer isn't about everything being your way. It's about being able to work with a publisher and coming up with a product that reflects and celebrates your ideas and creativity as much as possible, while still meeting the publisher's needs. After all, whether they are paying you three cents a word, or ten--they are *PAYING* you money for sharp ideas and *words* Because they are doing so, they are entitled to make some demands. If you don't like that, or can't deal with it, then you must recognize that your ideas and your world--whatever--will remain locked away in your own mind, or only briefly glimpsed at by the small group of people you play with.

Personally, after all the time and effort I have put into my campaigns, I like the idea of someone paying me money for even parts of my campaigns, or ideas that I have only partially developed. I can be as creative as I want, and still have my hobby actually *do* something for my life--by not only paying me, but also having the fun and joy of sharing my *art*--such as it is, with thousands of other people from around the world. If I can get a sharp company to believe in me, and invest in me, and others can buy my books and have fun with them, and bring more fun and inspiration to their own games, then it's a job well done. Just a little something more that I can be proud of. How cool is that?

Otherwise--your ideas, your *art* simply dies with you, as it were. Your brilliance, your creativity, your unique gifts to the world mean nothing. They effect no one, and they go no where. Yeah, there is a minute chance that you can self-publish, and keep absolute creative rights to your ideas. But how much will you get paid, and how many people will see it, and get to enjoy it, seeing that if you self-publish, you are essentially a no-name question mark with no advertising and distribution strength or system behind you?

I think the joy of sharing my art with people and bringing fun to people, as well as getting paid for doing stuff I would be writing up for myself anyways--is a situation where everyone wins.

Semper Fidelis,

SHARK

 

[Orcus]

Mike and Erik, right on.

When Mike says he will write 1million words, here is a guage for you: we use a rule of thumb of 750 words to a printed page. So that is over 1000 printed pages of work--not pages of manuscript, printed work! That is an INSANE amount of work for a year for a freelancer.

As for payment, it will be years before the TOTAL I have paid freelancers adds up to 40,000.

There is NO good business justification for not submittion short of the person who has real conflicts over intellectual property, so enough with the "I wont sell it because I could make more money" becuase NO YOU CAN'T.

There is a reason for the big payday. Its called BAIT.

Our cheesy worlds (and I mean mine too) are not worth $120,000. PERIOD. No matter how good they are. Unpublished authors shouldnt even get to sneeze at that kind of money for a setting bible (not a whole world, just a friggin setting bible!!!).

So why did WotC offer that kind of jack?

To get the Monte Cooks and Sean Reynolds' and Tracy Hickman's of the world to submit stuff. Thats why. And guess what, $120,000 is still a good payday from THEM for a 100 page setting bible.

As for my take on this "my conscience wouldnt let me" or "I didnt want to sell my soul" is that it is just what I call "gamer purity." Gamers just want to be more "pure" than the next guy, and thus somehow better in their minds. Like "pure roleplayers", some people are just "too pure" to send in their game worlds.

If you dont want to do a submission for your own personal reasons, fine. Thats your choice. But posting about it is just self aggrandizement. Which also seems to go hand in hand with purity for some reason. People who feel they are so pure seem also to be compelled to tell everyone else about it. Strange.

Back to freelancers. Mike is right. It is near impossible to get on time stuff from freelancers. Mike is one over the VERY VERY tiny group of people who are on time. And as for his point about delayed payments, he is right on. Publishers have to get paid by distributors (who are waiting for others sometimes) and that is done quarterly, so you might not get your check as a freelancer (if part of the payment is after release) until over 3 months after release becasue the company might not have the money to pay until that time. So the payment lag is another problem for freelancers.

As for the guy who has 95% of publishing figured out I would love to get a lesson from him. I own a publishing company and have done pretty well with it and I dont have 95% of it figured out. Not by a long shot. So if there is a guy who hasnt published jack who knows 95% he needs to get on the lecture circuit right away!

Clark

 

[DragonDroid]

Missed one.

Orcus: 95% of writing, NOT publishing. I know next to nothing about publishing because I haven't been published yet!

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Just to sort of get right to the heart of the original post -

Greyhawk is always spoken of as Gary Gygax's campaign world. However, as he's explained many times over the years, including on these boards, his original campaign world is still unpublished. He simply took it and modified it for public consumption. Thus he got to keep his "baby," and publish a game world.

My point, basically, is that all the anguish over this subject seems easily eliminated by just a tad of inventiveness.

It's cool to see all the heavy hitters weighing in on the subject. I think I'll go pop some corn...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

I'd like to know, DragonDroid, exactly what you mean by saying you know 95% there is to know about writing. I mean, I got a 700 on the English part of the SAT's, so I know quite a bit about it also, depending on how you look at it.

 

[Skarp Hedin]

DragonDroid said:

a guaranteed job

You've mentioned this a few times in your posts. From what I recall on the Wizards' site, the winner gets "potential preferential treatment" for further development work. Preferential treatment isn't a job offer, and potential preferential treatment is even further away from a job offer. Soo.. unless I'm really missing something, there's not even really an implied job offer. Joe McSchmoe has "potential preferential treatment" when he applies for a job too, meaning "he might get hired if he applies".

This doesn't necessarily have any bearing on this discussion, but it's worth mentioning that even if you did win, there's no assurance whatsoever that Wizards is at all interested in having you do anything else for them beyond accepting a check and smiling for the nice photographers.

 

[Nightfall]

Uhm I don't know about gamer purity, Oh great and Undying One also known as Clark. I just figured you and the S&SS crew along with parts of Thunderhead Games already own me. Figuratively at least. "Writer idealism" has nothing to do with why I didn't submit. I just didn't feel that WotC was the best place for many of my ideas.

 

[Orcus]

Night--I wasnt saying everyone who didnt submit did so because of "purity." People dont submit for lots of reasons that are just fine becasue they are reasons of their own. I was just talking about the "my conscience wouldnt let me do it boy am I being melodramatic and I want everyone to acknowledge my purity because it makes me better than you" crowd. And frankly my position was probably a little firmer than necessary, nor was I particularly commenting on the thread originator of this thread. I was just all pumped up from reading RPGnet. Boy that forum gets out of hand. And I think ENWorld gets out of control sometimes.

Anyway, as for the guy who hasnt published but knows 95% of writing I have this to propose: I am an attorney; I was on law review and was a chief editor of our law review. I have published professionally in a law review and have run Necromancer Games and been published by my own company (though edited by outside editors unrelated to my company). I dont say this to brag becasue frankly who would admit being an attorney, perhaps the most reviled profession after insurance salesman, if they didnt have to. I offer it only to show my experience from which I am about to provide an opinion.

I would offer that my main learning experience about writing only came during the publication process. There is no better way to learn about writing than to have hordes of professionals cut your writing up and edit your stuff. I thought I could write. But when you go through a truly professional publication process (like a law review article where 20 or more highly technical editors edit your work) or for a non-vanity press where editors who dont know you cut up your work, you really learn alot about writing. If you havent been through that process (and I dont know if you have or not) then I would find it hard to believe you have gotten to 95% understanding. I understand that purely creative writing (novels, etc) can be considered different from professional, technical or game writing. But I would venture to guess that the experience would be similar and that many would say the publication process is infact very instructive for writing.

But hey, I could be wrong. That happens alot.

Clark

 

[mearls]

*chuckle*

The guy to whom I owe an email (James) and the guy to whom I owe a freakin' complete *module* (Clark, and yes, by hook or by crook it will be done) step up to support me. Thanks for the kind words guys, even if I'm a slacker.