20th level arena challenge. comments?

[green slime]

The link to the Character sheet pdf doesn't work.

 

[reanjr]

Thanks, I'll have to look more at 'The word' and 'the wish' over on the WoTC forums.

As far as rules disputes go, I hadn't even realized we hadn't addressed this on the webpage yet. We discussed it earlier and are current policy is. Each match will have its own DM,(4 of a time as there are 4 of us). We will give the players up to 5 minuites (timed)to argue a rule they feel is being interpreted incorrectly, but in the end the DM's decision is final. We really don't want someone to walk away from this thinking they got cheated, yet at the same time we cant spend hours on rules lawyering.

Perhaps the group DM should frame the question (figure out exactly what the argument hinges on) and present it in an unbiased, anonymous way to a single rules arbiter whose job it is to look up and make judgement callse on rules. No favoritism that way.

 

[green slime]

Typical rules exploits I've seen (only in 3.0, haven't been involved in this sort of thing for 3.5):
Dropping large heavy objects accurately, to cause massive damage. (Quaal's Feather Token tree, which somehow sprung into existance in midair DM errors cause great woe). Shapechanging in midair to fall upon people, that kind of thing.
3.0 garrot's, shrink item, and antimagic field.
Eversmoking bottle, and the rules for smoke inhalation.

there are more, check out some of the earlier "game of death" threads, for instance:
http://www.enworld.org/archive/index.php/t-497.html

 

[reanjr]

I HIGHLY suggest giving everyone average-0.5 hp/level (except of course 1st).

Rolling for hp could skew things greatly. If you give everyone max that can skew the power level of several spells. So avg-.5 is the way to go.

Another thing to point out though is Power Word spells.

Wizard 20: Base 42 hp
Rogue 20: Base 63 hp
Cleric 20: Base 84 hp
Fighter 20: Base 105 hp
Barbarian 20: Base 126 hp

Even with Con bonuses, Power Word Kill ends a battle against a Wizard or Rogue immediately. A quickened magic missile followed up by power word kill will take out a cleric in all likelihood. You could maximize just to be sure.

Also, how are you determining starting range? It should be random in some way or else you are giving certain classes a tactical advantage (starting 10ft. away is good for the fighter, at 1000 feet, the wizard will rock).

 

[green slime]

You will also need to consider extraplanar movement, is it allowed? Etherealness? This also brings up the fact that if you are allowing such, then you need to be able to send players from the room, in order to better facilitate what they are aware of, not aware of.

Bracelet of Friends? What friends?

What happens to one shot items used in a round? Are they automatically replaced, or are they consumed? Is it possible to purchase partially charged items (I recommend against that...)? Which rules are you using concerning wizard's spellbooks, and scribing into them? It is possible per the rules to scribe spells from other spellbooks, without acquiring scrolls, at a fraction of the cost....

 

[KarinsDad]

You will also need to consider extraplanar movement, is it allowed? Etherealness? This also brings up the fact that if you are allowing such, then you need to be able to send players from the room, in order to better facilitate what they are aware of, not aware of.

Bracelet of Friends? What friends?

Simple. The friends are not willing. Opps. Guess you shouldn't have brought that item and wasted that standard action.

Actually, the coordinators should make it clear that such items will not work ahead of time.

What happens to one shot items used in a round? Are they automatically replaced, or are they consumed? Is it possible to purchase partially charged items (I recommend against that...)? Which rules are you using concerning wizard's spellbooks, and scribing into them? It is possible per the rules to scribe spells from other spellbooks, without acquiring scrolls, at a fraction of the cost....

My thoughts exactly.

Some others:

1) For actions that the opponent is not aware of and/or are not obvious, have the players write them down on 3x5 card and hand it to the DM (re-used the same 3x5 cards for the entire encounter). This serves two purposes: it keeps players in the dark about stuff they should not know, and it keeps a record of some of what has occurred in case of arguments. In fact, you could have players write down on the card every action they are doing and you would then have a complete record of the entire combat for later review/adjudication. Even though this will take up time, these combats should not last that long as is.

2) Set up your squares with a numbers system (e.g. A1 through Z26 or whatever). That way, a character whose opponent is unaware of his location for whatever reason can write down movement from G34 G33 H32 I31 I30 (which is 25 feet in this example) and the DM knows exactly which squares the character went through and how far he went.

3) Make sure that the adjudicating DM is totally familiar with every item, feat, ability, and spell of the two opponents ahead of time including what creatures the spell can summon and it's abilities. Nothing worse than a DM who screws up the combat cause he is unaware that Protection From Evil prevents Domination from being effective. If a character casts a specific spell that the DM is not totally familiar with, have the DM take out a moment to read the spell to ensure he is onboard.

4) In the case of Contingency spells, as green slime mentioned, state your rules ahead of time as to whether one shot spells can be replenished between encounters. Plus, Contingency can easily be abused. Do not allow the character to get away with a trigger that the character himself cannot observe. For example, do not allow a Contingency Dispel Magic if an Antimagic Field touches the character unless the character can somehow be aware that an Antimagic Field is touching him. The Contigency spell itself is not omniscient.

5) "Characters may opt to start the tournament at nineteenth level in order to make items or cast spells." What does this mean? Is it talking about XP spells like Wish for stats, or just normal spells? If normal spells are allowed ahead of time, are characters allowed to cast spells like Commune and get information about their opponents ahead of time?

6) You should up the height on the arena to 250 feet from 200 feet. That way, an opponent could be dropped for the full 20D6 and Feather Fall is less effective for characters with only a few levels of arcane spell caster.

7) You also should have rules for whether characters that take Craft feats can craft reasonable items that are not listed in the book, especially wands, potions, and scrolls where the rules are well laid out. Granted, crafting most other items runs the risk of putting the cost through the roof (due to the poor item creation rules), but you should set up a limitation for non-standard items (I would suggest only wands, potions, and scrolls).

 

[Clovekiller]

Something to consider:
- Psionics (at this level, I'd simply disallow them completely, they are far too advantageous compared to magic for this style of play)
- Magic (there are plenty things to consider... metamagic rods should be banned, Gate, Mordenkainen's Disjunction, etc)

We arent allowing any material from any of the psionics books. We feel the same way about them. I'm curiouse why you think metamagic rods should be banned?

You really, really, really have to go over every character with a fine toothcomb. No. I mean REALLY. No. Like Anally Retentive.

There is a 'level progression' sheet in the pdf(which isn't up yet) that players must fill out, which specifies at each level what feats, skills, stat + saves you gain at each level. It will make character approval much easier.

Perhaps the group DM should frame the question (figure out exactly what the argument hinges on) and present it in an unbiased, anonymous way to a single rules arbiter whose job it is to look up and make judgement callse on rules. No favoritism that way.

I thought about that, but thats pretty much the DM's job, if we knew a another person who we thought would make a decent judge, we'd probably rather have another DM.

 

[Fieari]

How long between "in game" matches? That is to say, do wizards get all their spells replenished between matches? Is there time to, say, cast a commune or augury or some such between matches?

 

[Diirk]

I HIGHLY suggest giving everyone average-0.5 hp/level (except of course 1st).

Rolling for hp could skew things greatly. If you give everyone max that can skew the power level of several spells. So avg-.5 is the way to go.

Another thing to point out though is Power Word spells.

Wizard 20: Base 42 hp
Rogue 20: Base 63 hp
Cleric 20: Base 84 hp
Fighter 20: Base 105 hp
Barbarian 20: Base 126 hp

Even with Con bonuses, Power Word Kill ends a battle against a Wizard or Rogue immediately. A quickened magic missile followed up by power word kill will take out a cleric in all likelihood. You could maximize just to be sure.

Why average - 0.5 ? Why not just average ? I believe the standard non-roll method is max first level, then average for the rest (ie round down 2nd level, round up 3rd, down 4th etc). So a mage would get 4 + 2 + 3 etc etc. Or more simply 4 + 2.5x(level-1), rounded down.

That makes it:
Wizard 20: Base 51 hp
Rogue 20: Base 72 hp
Cleric 20: Base 93 hp
Fighter 20: Base 114 hp
Barbarian 20: Base 135 hp

At this point con bonuses for a 20th level character will make a wizard easily safe from power word kill (until he's hurt), and most likely from power word stun. (Again, til he's hurt).

 

[Clovekiller]

I HIGHLY suggest giving everyone average-0.5 hp/level (except of course 1st).

Also, how are you determining starting range? It should be random in some way or else you are giving certain classes a tactical advantage (starting 10ft. away is good for the fighter, at 1000 feet, the wizard will rock).

All random rolls are the average.
Starting range is random between 20-60 feet.

You will also need to consider extraplanar movement, is it allowed? Etherealness?
....
What happens to one shot items used in a round? Are they automatically replaced, or are they consumed? Is it possible to purchase partially charged items (I recommend against that...)?
....
It is possible per the rules to scribe spells from other spellbooks, without acquiring scrolls, at a fraction of the cost....

Coterminous planes (Ethereal, Astral and Shadow) are available within the bounds of the arena. Attempts to move to planes which are not coterminous will result in disqualification. You may not move beyond the borders of the arena with magical or physical means.
...
Full refresh between rounds which is why charged & single use items cost 3x listed price
(unless single use with perm duration). We are allowing partial charged (still 3x listed cost for the partialy charged item)
...
Listed cost. Way to many loopholes otherwise.

Karinsdad (way to much to quote)
1) Yes
2) Yes
3) We are trying, only human though. Each DM will have the SRD in pda/laptop form for quick searching and the books if we need. Hopefully we won't. The last thing I want to do, or any of us I'm sure, is be personally resposible for someone loosing.
4) Contingency isn't really going to be possible. The rules as they are now "Spells and items with a permanent or instantaneous duration may be considered to be used before the beginning of the tournament". (We are thinking of making an exception, to the rule just for contingency but as of yet have not) I doubt someone will try and cast it once combat starts.
5) As above mostly. Commune would be allowed only during the 'buff' rounds, not before.
6) Actually the height of the arena is only about 100' above ground its just 100' below ground too.
7)Currently item creation is allowed, wonderous item creation is not.