24 - 4e style (closed)

Velmont has good points but he missed two of the main advantage of fighting from the door panels;

1 - You always have cover. The guys down there can't say the same if the team fire from two different angles.

2 - You can play 'wack'a'mole'. Alternate between 'move-in-front-of-the-door-then-attack' and 'Attack-then-move-away-from the door'. That means that one round out of two you ain't even an available target, forcing them to spread their attacks. You can coordinate who remains an available target based on available HP.

In fact, with deft strike, Garrick can attack every round and never end up in front of the door and always gain sneak attack thanks to his powers;

Garrick starts out of sight, 2 square from the door. Makes a stealth check. Use deft strike to pop in front of the door and shoots one guy (possible sneak attack). Uses his move to get out of in front of the door (keeping it to two square to avoid -5 to stealth, The fleeting ghost utility power would be awesome here but it can still work without). Rinse and repeat. If it looks like an opponent is readying an action for garrick, another of your buddy communicates the information and you move to another door.

With that kind of tactic, it's a given that people will move up to you before long. Especially the skull; he can fly, after all.

PS : Garrick; I gotta say, based on powers, I pegged you as a rogue who would use lots of these 'stealth-pop out of covers for sneak attack' tactics. An artful dodgers halfing with deft strike... I mean, the whole reason to choose deft strike over piercing strike for a CHA rogue IMO is for these kind of stealth-sneak tactics. Hence the last two maps have given plenty of opportunities with their narrow corridors and doors. I was purposefully compensating for the second map who left that style high and dry and the first who was only moderately friendly to it. I wanted to give you a chance to shine since you did few sneak attacks in the first two maps. But... well, I must have read you wrong because you have seized on none of these occasions in the third map and now you are foregoing the panels entirely by jumping down. The result is that you are not doing enough sneak attacks which hurt your performances.

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The soldier had a +2 crossbow, by the way. I meant to make it clear that he had a crossbow early in the fight but I'm realizing it slipped my mind to even hint at it. My bad. :o

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The ritual chambers is full of useful goodies. This I hinted both in the description and by the helpful yellow marking on the maps. And when I decided to give you the alchemical acid as a reward for a very good thievery check, it was also to give you a taste for more...
 
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OK, point made, Garrick will head back up. I think he (I) just had the idea that the biggies might be able to continue the ritual even after many of the cultists were dead and they were too far away to reach from above.

As to Garrick and sneak attack - this is only my second ever 4e rogue - and the first ever is not even as experienced as him! (started earlier but slower game!" and I always forget the CA bit. I know it's stupid but I guess I'm just a slow learner!"
 

Leyra, you miss two things. The minion are weaks, and we need to dispatch only a few per round. Two would be enough. When there would be not enough minion, they would come to us and they will come into your range.

And you are true, there is only a few danegrous oppnent, and it is exactly that, they are danegrous, really dangerous. I estimate that combat to be a level 10 encounter, take or give 1. The three headed skull is really tough for a level 6 party. Add the two monk (when know they can be really troublesome), the flying skull (he was really annoying on the dam) and the zombie and two cultist and we are in deep trouble.

Over that, we have already start to expand encounter power and other ressources. Finally, you just gave up our main advanatge, the ground.

1) Higher ground make them almost impossoble to fight while climbing.
2) The doors are bottleneck, so only a few can come at a time. The other will have to take the stairs at the other side and will spend a few round without doing anything usefull, but us, we would dispatch a few of them.
3) Finally, Garrick could easily sneak by hiding behind teh wall and just poping out those door to shoot and go back into hiding.

We just gave up every advantage we had by just going down there. I know Mal, he is also my real life master, and he is not affarid to give us overwhelming odds if we have something to offset there strength... and we are not using that advantage. That's how I see the situation.

That's all right, but the problem is... we will not be able to defeat them this way. It's impossible.


This is what they will do (if they don't act stupid):

Flameskull and Skull Lord stay at Range 10 (or move in and out of Range 10 every other round to make it harder for us to attack them) and blast whoever they can see up there with their ranged attacks.

The monks can still cast their shadow tentacles to the upper level, and then move out of harms way. The cultists simply do nothing.

Now that we are under constant fire from some fairly nasty ranged attackers, that are completely unhindered in their attacks, we have the following in return:

- Warlock (Eldritch Blast mostly)
- Wizard
- Rogue (Shuriken)
- Longbow basic attack

Period. That's it.

The machine is useless, because there is enough cover down there to always stay out of its threat area.

The Swordmage and the Fighter are completely useless up there.


And...

They Regenerate, we don't. If they are down too far in hit points, they just move into full cover, regenerate up and come back. They can easily avoid our attacks, when they are not directly threatened.

We cannot do the same.

Result: We lose after a long, dragged out combat. It's inevitable, unless we have obscene luck.


On the other hand... if we move down quickly and get close, they also have the same attacks on us, which we will get up there. In addition, they have the two monks and all the cultists in melee.

The cultists are really no problem, they die in droves to our area attacks. They are gone after 1-2 rounds, having done minor damage in the meantime.

This gives them two monks and we have our two fighters + Leyra's radiant attacks (which are A LOT more effective than her longbow).

We can concentrate our attacks on them, and they cannot easily move out of range to regenerate or stay away.

IMHO these odds are a lot better than staying up there. We have to take them down as fast as possible (especially the Skull Lord)... they clearly have the upper hand in a drawn out combat.

Bye
Thanee
 

Although I have taken part in several 4e games none have, so far, gone very far and none have yet met nasties much above character level. Also I don't have the Bestiary so have no idea really what these things are capable of. And so I am unsuited to really answering this question but I will try anyway!

Mal and Velmont feel we should stay above whilst Thanee thinks we should get stuck in. I will admit my gut instinct is to get stuck in.

a) If Thanee is correct about their ranged options then all it would take would be for the monks to tentacle the gaps and we would be stuck, sitting targets for the biggies.

b)I do also realise that not all of us have decent ranged attacks but by staying upstairs we are restricting ourselves to just ranged attacks.
Garrick's ranged attacks are at-wills and are only short range; his encounter powers are all melee and generally do better things. This is probably the case for others as well.

c) By 'teaming', working together with slides and teleports etc we should be able - especially with discussion in the OOC thread - to keep the enemy off balance, flanked etc to give us plusses to attack and damage.

d)
Mal commented on Garrick's 'non-use' of sneaking - this is a good room to use it with all the pillars. I've never really used a thief in combat before (natural fighter I guess!) which is why I keep forgetting Garrick's advantages.

Anyway I second Thanee's suggestion that we get down there and get stuck in. I've already edited my post twice and I am prepared to edit it again to get behind the pillar rather than up the ladder.
 


Well, let's see what options there are...

1) Staying up
1a) Moving towards the two goons that come from the other corridor, in order to help Nathan out
1b) Move the machine in front of the panel in order to use it to fire down (not sure how far it can go and how useful this is in general, but might be worth it)
1c) Go into the nearby rooms and look for anything useful
1d) Just wait (obviously not good)

2) Coming down
2a) Moving quickly towards the center to attack the Skull Lord (your ability to mark him will be very useful there), maybe even covering the ground while the ritual team is still on it (not sure when the head guys will stop and turn on us, but they will do so sooner or later)
2b) Move to intercept the monks

Those seem the most useful options to me right now. :)

Bye
Thanee
 

I disagree on teh point of teh figther and the swordmage being totally useless. There is still two cultist on our floor. Also, the monk have no good range option and will probably want to climb up here. The role of the two defender will be to make sure no one who tries to climb can do it easily and block anyone who would prefer to take the long way around to end on the back of the others.

Charwoman: I suggest option 1b) and test that machine. If you can weaken the monks and goons, that would be great. I doubt it would work agaianst the skulls, because it fire poison dart, but I'm quite sure you can do a few rounds of killing with 2d4 darts per rounds.
 

Charwoman, where Dagran is heading? You have an open door just next to you, why don't you push the machine there so you can start to shoot with it next round. And don't forget that the machine offer cover if you are behind, that will help you too.
 

Charwoman, where Dagran is heading? You have an open door just next to you, why don't you push the machine there so you can start to shoot with it next round. And don't forget that the machine offer cover if you are behind, that will help you too.

*apparent nonsense removed*
 
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