D&D 2E 2E Thief Rewrite

[Zardnaar]

Our Fighter/thief noped out and went solo fighter instead. I knew why.

So made some changes. Unless otherwise noted same as PHB.

1. Added sneak attack same rate as 3E/5E. They can sneak attack flanking or beating opponent to initiative. They retain backstab.

2. Thief skills overhauled. From C&C They add their level to a d20 roll. Their base skill number is +3. This is modified by ability scores using B/X stat array modified. DC 5,10,15,20,25,30. Racial modifiers also added 15% becomes +3.

3. Expertise level 3 and 6. Pick two skills that +3 becomes +6.

Mostly it. May have overdone the skills but they can be tuned.

 

[cbwjm]

Do you use proficiencies? I ended up removing the thief and turning all of their skills into proficiencies allowing anyone to learn them.

In the thief's place I created the rogue which belongs to the warrior group and is more dex based, has some stealth ability similar to the elf, and also gets double damage when ambushing, increasing with level. Kind of wanted to get a bandit or diirty fighter vide from it.

 

[Zardnaar]

Do you use proficiencies? I ended up removing the thief and turning all of their skills into proficiencies allowing anyone to learn them.

In the thief's place I created the rogue which belongs to the warrior group and is more dex based, has some stealth ability similar to the elf, and also gets double damage when ambushing, increasing with level. Kind of wanted to get a bandit or diirty fighter vide from it.

Yup using WP/NWP

 

[Celebrim]

I've played around with converting AD&D over to something more modern. What I had looked a lot like what you are doing but I also redid all saving throws to ensure more balance between the classes especially at high levels. I also gave the thief the same attack table as the cleric and also gave them multiple attacks per round with thief weapons at a rate equal to 1/2 the fighter who is specialized rate (so a 10th level thief could use a dagger as readily as a 5th level fighter specialized in that weapon), as well as the ability to increase DEX over time using the same mechanics as a Cavelier.

 

[Voadam]

Added sneak attack same rate as 3E/5E. They can sneak attack flanking or beating opponent to initiative. They retain backstab.

Two separate possibly overlapping and stacking abilities?

For a while I have thought OSR thieves should be designed to balance as variant light armor fighters instead of as variant wizards since thief skills, sword usage, tough to pull off backstab, and the slight bump in leather armor AC and in AD&D HD are nowhere near worth artillery fireballs.

Fighter HD, THACO, and xp.

Give them backstab as flavor text for automatic +4 to hit and multiplied damage for sneaky fighting and not make it mechanically tough to pull off.

Being a vulnerable striker light armor fighter with one heavy hitting attack balances well against front line tank fighters with multiple attacks and front line tank clerics with great AC but slightly lesser hp, THAC0, and weapon choices but good clerical magic.

It seems a balanced option menu to me and fits the master duelist Gray Mouser ultra competent swordsman archetype.

 

[Zardnaar]

Two separate possibly overlapping and stacking abilities?

For a while I have thought OSR thieves should be designed to balance as variant light armor fighters instead of as variant wizards since thief skills, sword usage, tough to pull off backstab, and the slight bump in leather armor AC and in AD&D HD are nowhere near worth artillery fireballs.

Fighter HD, THACO, and xp.

Give them backstab as flavor text for automatic +4 to hit and multiplied damage for sneaky fighting and not make it mechanically tough to pull off.

Being a vulnerable striker light armor fighter with one heavy hitting attack balances well against front line tank fighters with multiple attacks and front line tank clerics with great AC but slightly lesser hp, THAC0, and weapon choices but good clerical magic.

It seems a balanced option menu to me and fits the master duelist Gray Mouser ultra competent swordsman archetype.

Yeah need to make it clear it's one or the other not both Sneak attack and backstab.

I allow backstabs on paralyzed, stunned, sleeping opponents. Anything incapacitated in 5E terms.

 

[cbwjm]

This is the Rogue class I made, haven't tested it and it does use some homebrewisms as well (listed below).

• Classes know all of their class weapons rather than it being a list to choose proficiencies. Warriors can specialise, non-warriors can add additional weapon groups known (such as a wizard learning to use swords).
• Warriors can make a cleave attack for each level of their class, replacing the old heroic fray mechanic.
• Rather than proficiencies, I use careers, a system that I stole and adapted from Barbarians of Lemuria.

ROGUE
The Rogue is a lightly armoured warrior who uses agility and ambush tactics to their advantage.

Class Group: Warrior
Hit Die: D10
THAC0: Warrior
Saving Throws: Warrior
Weapons: All
Armour: Light, Medium, Shields

The rogue is a stealthy combatant and master of the ambush, Their opponents suffer a -2 penalty on their surprise checks as long as they are alone or with others with a similar ability, such as elves. When they surprise an enemy they can make an ambush attack if wielding a one-handed melee weapon. This ambush attack gains a +4 bonus to hit (instead of the normal +2 bonus against surprised targets) and deals double the weapon damage dice. At higher levels, this damage increases.

The rogue uses an agile fighting style, granting a +2 bonus to his AC when wearing light or no armour and while unencumbered. Their reflexes are such that they also gain this bonus to saving throws where agility might play a part, such as dodging a pitfall.

As warriors, rogues may specialise in a weapon group or fighting style. They may not gain mastery or higher skill unless a particular kit allows it. They gain two weapon slots at 1st level, and an additional slot for every three levels (3, 6, 9, etc).

Rogues may cleave. If they down a foe with an attack, rogues can make an immediate attack against another enemy. They may make a number of these attacks equal to their level moving no more than 5 feet between each attack.

Name Level
At name level, the notoriety of the rogue is enough that he can set himself up as head of an organisation and gain followers. Depending on how the Rogue has been played, some ideas are below:

• Lord. The rogue gains a position in the local bureaucracy, such as becoming a baron.
• Bandit King. The rogue gains the following of a group of bandits, maybe after slaying the last bandit king in single combat.
• Grandfather of Assassins. The rogue founds an assassin hideout, often in an out of the way location, where he begins training followers.
• Head of a Thieves Guild. The rogue founds a thieves guild in a large town or city.

Ideally careers should supplement the holding, so a career of Assassin should be one of the rogue's careers when forming an assassin hideout.

 

[PHATsakk43]

I'm not sure the 2E thief needs a rewrite more than a better understanding of the class.

If you want a "bounded accuracy" style skill-user, just make everything the rogue will encounter be roughly 65-75% possible, regardless of skill. Modify the attempt down as necessary to get everything in that range. But that is sorta lame IMHO.

2E thieves start as poor fighters who can climb walls and possibly one other skill and that is it at 1st level. With decent RP by the player, they can usually increase their odds in one or two others of their skills depending upon how the player allocated their initial 60 points, Dex, armor, and PC race. That said, they level fast and can usually be pretty good at the one or two things they focused in by 3rd or 4th level. They typically bring more to the early fights than say the mage, especially if the player opts for a high ROF missile weapon with one of the two initial WPs.

I'll take the abuse that is sure to come from defending AD&D thieves.

 

[Voadam]

Rogues are OK ranged combatants at low level being dex oriented and able to use the 2 ROF short bow, the two ROF thrown dagger and the three ROF darts. They quickly lose out to a range oriented fighter who gets 1/1 THAC0 advancement over the rogue's 1/2 THAC0 advancement. In melee the thief being able to use a magic sword and the very conditional backstab does not really make up for being a low HD, poor AC, poor THAC0 combatant with no extra attacks. Two weapon attacking can help a little but you still don't want to be there. They are better melee combatants than mages, but not even as good as the not spell boosted cleric who gets bigger HD, better armor, and better THAC0 even with the no magic sword restrictions. Plate Mail and shield versus leather is pretty huge in AD&D.

 

[James Gasik]

One thing that annoyed me about 2e Thieves in particular is that in order to put points into a Thieving Ability, you had to use it. This presented a real issue for me- if you invest a lot of points in some skills so you have better than a coin flip to use them, that leaves you with skills that are hard to improve later...hm, in retrospect, I'm reminded of playing Morrowind or Oblivion.

Anyone who wants to make playing a Thief a less unpleasant experience has my vote. So I like what I'm seeing here, though I have a few caveats (all based on personal opinion, so heed or ignore what I have to say freely):

*I think there's no reason to lock out any class from learning how to hide, move silently, climb walls, or detect noise. Academic types really should be able to learn how to read languages. Turning the classic skills into NWP's , then giving Thieves bonuses to them and free proficiency feels like a better approach. After all, look how many free NWP's the Bard gets!

*Backstab is entirely too persnickety. Depending on the DM and how closely they follow the various rules for the ability, it can be something you can use often or so rarely that it's not even worth marking the ability down on your sheet- my last 2e Thief fell into this category- they were a Dwarf with the Locksmith kit. I wasn't sneaking around, I was there to find traps and open locks. I'll just hang back and plink things with my shortbow, thanks, so I didn't even write down that I had Backstab (to the horror of my fellow players, lol) as I had no use for it!

*The ability to use consumable magic items is similarly DM-dependent. If your party often finds such things, then you can expect your Thief to have a stockpile of them- but in this case, the ability should come online sooner. If your party rarely finds such things, or they quickly get snapped up by the casters (I mean, what Bard or Wizard is going to share a scroll he could scribe into his spellbook? Plus Bards are better at scroll use than Thieves, to boot!), what seems like a major ability is basically pointless. I played a Priest with the Magic Domain in 3e, thinking I was going to be able to use Wizard scrolls all the time, and ended up using the ability twice by the time I was level 9.

*Consider adding Evasion to the class. It existed in Oriental Adventures, so it's not really out of place in AD&D. It really helps sell the nimble guy leaping out of the way of certain attacks. Giving them a better Breath Weapon save certainly helps (sure, Dexterity's Defensive Adjustment helps, but not every Thief is going to have super high Dexterity!).

*Don't forget that Sneak Attack encourages dual-wielding characters over ranged characters, putting the Thief in more danger thanks to their terribad AC. It's ok if ranged Sneak Attacks have limitations, but at least give the Thief the ability to fire into a melee without accidentally Sneak Attacking an ally! Further, the fact that Sneak Attack turns off against a wide array of foes, including common ones like Undead, is particularly odious in play- though I admit, that's hardly a unique thing in AD&D- Turn Undead, Favored Enemy, etc. etc..