2E vs 3E: 8 Years Later. A new perspective?

[Spell]

The assertion was made that 3e characters are "all about combat" and 1e/2e characters weren't, somehow.

well, they were not. have you checked how much of the PHB is devoted to the combat section? how many spells are connected to combat vs. those than have other effects? how many NWP have nothing to do with combat?

now, you might like the way things were implemented, but you can't say that the level of "combat madness" was the same in earlier editions of the games.

i remember we laughed at powergamers and avoided them like the plague. then 3e comes out, et voila! sidebars on "power combos" right in the middle of dragon, as if that was meant to be the way to play the game. at the same time, no ecologies or habitat entries in the MM. and combat references spilling out almost everywhere in the system.

sorry, i don't think this is a matter of experience. it's a way of presenting the system to new players and oldies alike. it's a shift in attention for the design team.

if role playing mechanics weren't well implemented in previous editions, the solution shouldn't have been: "ok, screw those, we're concentrating on combat", but "wait a second, what can we do to make things better for those that want role play heavy campaigns?!?!"

The 3e system has more and better tools as part of the rule set for defining a character with respect to non-combat elements, which makes the accusation that 3e characters are supposedly encouraged by the system to be combat monsters and nothing else.

like? the alignment is toned down. non adventuring specific skills (farming, woodcutting, and so on) are either confined in knowledges, crafts and professions, or just not in the game. feats are mostly just an excuse to rake in combat bonuses and "cool" tactical manoeuvres.
where is this famed customization?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

<snip>
so, compatibility and felxibility are possible in today's market. it's a design choice not to include them in 3e.

That's definitely true.
3e aimed at creating an integrated system consisting of multiple sub-systems that work closely together. It used the general concepts of earlier D&D editions (like 9 levels of spells), but decided to structure them in a different manner, so that it's one tight package. This "tightness" and restructuring meant giving up a lot of flexibility and compatibility.

For my part, I generally preferred the 3e approach, and welcome it with 4e, too. In case of 3e, previous editions didn't really matter to me - i started play with 3e, and didn't have any material for it I wanted to continue using. But judging from my reaction to the "no conversion rules" announcement to 4e), it probably wouldn't have mattered to me even if I was an AD&D "user". I am far more interested in a game system on its own.
But I can see why compatibility is an issue if you have invested a lot of money and time in your game and see most of the material rendered useless with a new edition.

Still, there are a few areas in which more flexibility in deviating from the core assumptions would have been nice. (Most notably for me, this was the "wealth per level" dependency in 3.x, but less strict rules for monster and NPC design would also be of great help, especially for a DM that has to come up with a good adventure idea, flesh it out and then build the NPCs & monsters for it).

 

[Reynard]

The 1e/2e NWP system (yes, it was introduced in 1e, check your 1e Dungeoneer's Survival Guide) was weak in execution.

The 3e system has more and better tools as part of the rule set for defining a character with respect to non-combat elements.

I disagree with both of these assertions. For 10 years of play, I found the NWP system to be perfectly viable for expanding upon the core concepts linked to the character's class and race and providing the player with tools to not only flesh out his character, but engage the adventure and the setting outside of combat. Your experiences may be different, of course, but that fact doesn't negate mine.

The problem with the way 3E handles it is that it integrates these out-of-combat, supoplementary, character-centric skills into the classes and class abilities and therefore they become just another number crunching exercise. The rogue spends all these skill points on tumble and balance and bluff for their combat advantages -- and well he should. But if those skill points were seperate from the core abilities of the rogue, then those same skill points could be spent on things that give the character versatility and/or depth as NWPs were used.

 

[Fifth Element]

what if i don't? any clear path to follow?

By "playing with them", I meant two things. One, you can start playing the game with the designer's assumptions. Two, you can play with the assumptions, changing them around, then play the game with those new assumptions.

 

[Spell]

Two, you can play with the assumptions, changing them around, then play the game with those new assumptions.

which is the great point of contention if you have followed the discussion so far. i don't think that option two is easy at all, unless you throw away much of the game balance, and convince your palyers that it's something worth doing.

 

[Fifth Element]

which is the great point of contention if you have followed the discussion so far. i don't think that option two is easy at all, unless you throw away much of the game balance, and convince your palyers that it's something worth doing.

Yes, but the point I was responding to was the assertion that the 2E situation, where the designer assumptions are kept behind the veil, was superior to the modern trend of being open about them.

If the assumptions are hidden, you'll never know if you're changing them. If they are known, you will at least know if they are assumptions that you like. You can then make an informed decision as to whether you want to try changing them.

 

[Johnny Angel]

Lastly, the psionic rules in 2E darksun (the rules in the revised box set) are quite nice. (though a few powers come too close to mage spells for comfort)

Those psionics rules were terrible. At least it had a psionic combat system, but it was unplayable because your power point pool was the same as your psionic hit point pool, and the cost of using your attacks was higher than the average damage they'd do to your enemy. You actually harmed yourself faster than you harmed the enemy. Furthermore, your defenses not only cost more of your psionic hit points to put up than the damage they were likely to save you from, but depending on what power your foe decided to use, they might even make you more vulnerable.

And of course the 2nd edition boxed set nerfed the entire setting. They took back all the things that made it a unique and essentially anti-D&D setting. Mages were now welcome, a dark and crappy world turned into an Age of Heroes. I spit on the 2nd edition Dark Sun boxed set.

 

[Spell]

Yes, but the point I was responding to was the assertion that the 2E situation, where the designer assumptions are kept behind the veil, was superior to the modern trend of being open about them.

but, as you could see from one of my previous reply, not having explicit assumptions meant that teh designers, too, couldn't stick with catering to one gaming style only.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Point of fact: Nonweapon proficiencies were introduced into 1e with Oriental Adventures, which preceded the Dungeoneer's Survival Guide.

Opinion: They sucked. As, in my opinion, do most skill systems in heroic fantasy.

I mean, what was the consequence of creating a proficiency for Horse Riding? -- Player characters started falling off their horses. What was the consequence of creating a proficiency for Read/Write? -- You started to get characters that couldn't read. What was the consequence of a proficiency for swimming? -- Player characters drowned because they couldn't swim.

Duh.

In the game Mr Gygax wrote, player characters were heroes and the mundane stuff was handwaved. I endorse this approach and reject NWPs.

 

[Voadam]

well, they were not. have you checked how much of the PHB is devoted to the combat section? how many spells are connected to combat vs. those than have other effects? how many NWP have nothing to do with combat?

now, you might like the way things were implemented, but you can't say that the level of "combat madness" was the same in earlier editions of the games.

. . .

like? the alignment is toned down. non adventuring specific skills (farming, woodcutting, and so on) are either confined in knowledges, crafts and professions, or just not in the game. feats are mostly just an excuse to rake in combat bonuses and "cool" tactical manoeuvres.
where is this famed customization?

Could you give some examples here? I'm seeing more similarities than differences in D&D editions on this.

My rtf from the 2e Rules CD does not have page numbers but the combat chapter from the PH (chapter 9) seems to have the most subheads of any chapter in the book but only covers 37 out of 570 pages of the rtf file. I'm not sure how much of the 3e PH is the combat section. I know in 1e that stuff was mostly not in the PH but in the DMG.

[SBLOCK]
Chapter 1: Player Character Ability Scores

Rolling Ability Scores
Alternative Dice-Rolling Methods
The Ability Scores
Strength
Dexterity
Constitution
Intelligence
Wisdom
Charisma
What the Numbers Mean

Chapter 2: Player Character Races

Minimum and Maximum Ability Scores
Racial Ability Adjustments
Class Restrictions and Level Limits
Languages
Dwarves
Elves
Gnomes
Half-Elves
Halflings
Humans
Other Characteristics

Chapter 3: Player Character Classes

Class Ability Score Requirements
Class Descriptions
Warrior
Fighter
Paladin
Ranger
Wizard
Mage
Schools of Magic
Specialist Wizards
Illusionist
Priest
Cleric
Priests of Specific Mythoi
Requirements
Weapons Allowed
Spells Allowed (Spheres of Influence)
Granted Powers
Ethos
Priest Titles
Balancing It All
Druid
Druid Organization
Rogue
Thief
Bard
Multi-Class and Dual-Class Characters
Multi-Class Combinations
Multi-Class Benefits and Restrictions
Dual-Class Benefits and Restrictions

Chapter 4: Alignment

Law, Neutrality, and Chaos
Good, Neutrality, and Evil
Alignment Combinations
Non-Aligned Creatures
Playing the Character's Alignment
Changing Alignment

Chapter 5: Proficiencies (Optional)

Acquiring Proficiencies
Training
Weapon Proficiencies
Effects of Weapon Proficiencies
Related Weapon Bonus
Weapon Specialization
Cost of Specialization
Effects of Specialization
Nonweapon Proficiencies
Using What You Know
Secondary Skills
Nonweapon Proficiencies
Using Nonweapon Proficiencies
Nonweapon Proficiency Descriptions

Chapter 6: Money and Equipment

Starting Money
Equipment Lists
Clothing
Daily Food and Lodging
Household Provisioning
Tack and Harness
Transport
Miscellaneous Equipment
Animals
Services
Weapons
Armor
Equipment Descriptions
Tack and Harness
Transport
Miscellaneous Equipment
Weapons
Armor
Armor Sizes
Getting Into and Out of Armor
Creatures with Natural Armor Classes
Encumbrance (Optional Rule)
Basic Encumbrance (Tournament Rule)
Specific Encumbrance (Optional Rule)
Encumbrance and Mounts (Tournament Rule)
Magical Armor and Encumbrance
Effects of Encumbrance

Chapter 7: Magic

Wizard Spells
Schools of Magic
Learning Spells
Illusions
Priest Spells
Casting Spells
Spell Components (Optional Rule)
Magical Research
Spell Descriptions

Chapter 8: Experience

Group Experience Awards
Individual Experience Awards
Training
Where's the Specific Info?

Chapter 9: Combat

More Than Just Hack-and-Slash
Definitions
The Attack Roll
Figuring the To-Hit Number
Modifiers to the Attack Roll
Weapon Type vs. Armor Modifiers (Optional Rule)
The Various Types of Weapons
Impossible To-Hit Numbers
Calculating THAC0
Combat and Encounters
The Combat Round
What You Can Do in One Round
The Combat Sequence
Initiative
Standard Initiative Procedure
Initiative Modifiers
Group Initiative (Optional Rule)
Individual Initiative (Optional Rule)
Multiple Attacks and Initiative
Spellcasting and Initiative
Weapon Speed and Initiative (Optional Rule)
Magical Weapon Speeds
Attacking with Two Weapons
Movement in Combat
Movement in Melee
Movement and Missile Combat
Charging an Opponent
Retreat
Attacking Without Killing
Punching and Wrestling
Overbearing
Weapons in Non-Lethal Combat
Non-Lethal Combat and Creatures
Touch Spells and Combat
Missile Weapons in Combat
Range
Rate of Fire
Ability Modifiers in Missile Combat
Firing into a Melee
Taking Cover Against Missile Fire
Grenade-Like Missiles
Types of Grenade-Like Missiles
Special Defenses
Parrying (Optional Rule)
The Saving Throw
Rolling Saving Throws
Saving Throw Priority
Voluntarily Failing Saving Throws
Ability Checks as Saving Throws
Modifying Saving Throws
Magic Resistance
Effects of Magic Resistance
When Magic Resistance Applies
Successful Magic Resistance Rolls
Turning Undead
Evil Priests and Undead
Injury and Death
Wounds
Special Damage
Falling
Paralysis
Energy Drain
Poison
Treating Poison Victims
Healing
Natural Healing
Magical Healing
Herbalism and Healing Proficiencies
Character Death
Death From Poison
Death From Massive Damage
Inescapable Death
Raising the Dead

Chapter 10: Treasure

Treasure Types
Magical Items
Dividing and Storing Treasure

Chapter 11: Encounters

The Surprise Roll
Effects of Surprise
Encounter Distance
Encounter Options

Chapter 12: NPCs

Hirelings
Followers
Henchmen
Player Character Obligations

Chapter 13: Vision and Light

Limits of Vision
Light
Infravision
Using Mirrors

Chapter 14: Time and Movement

Movement
Jogging and Running (Optional Rule)
Cross-Country Movement
Swimming
Holding Your Breath
Climbing
Calculating Success
Climbing Rates
Types of Surfaces
Actions While Climbing
Climbing Tools
Getting Down
[/SBLOCK]

I'm not remembering it as less focused on combat than 3e, can you point out specifics?

Here are the 2e NWPs

[SBLOCK]Table 37:
Nonweapon Proficiency Groups

General
# of Slots Relevant Check
Proficiency Required Ability Modifier
Agriculture 1 Intelligence 0
Animal Handling 1 Wisdom -1
Animal Training 1 Wisdom 0
Artistic Ability 1 Wisdom 0
Blacksmithing 1 Strength 0
Brewing 1 Intelligence 0
Carpentry 1 Strength 0
Cobbling 1 Dexterity 0
Cooking 1 Intelligence 0
Dancing 1 Dexterity 0
Direction Sense 1 Wisdom +1
Etiquette 1 Charisma 0
Fire-building 1 Wisdom -1
Fishing 1 Wisdom -1
Heraldry 1 Intelligence 0
Languages, Modern 1 Intelligence 0
Leatherworking 1 Intelligence 0
Mining 2 Wisdom -3
Pottery 1 Dexterity -2
Riding, Airborne 2 Wisdom -2
Riding, Land-based 1 Wisdom +3
Rope Use 1 Dexterity 0
Seamanship 1 Dexterity +1
Seamstress/Tailor 1 Dexterity -1
Singing 1 Charisma 0
Stonemasonry 1 Strength -2
Swimming 1 Strength 0
Weather Sense 1 Wisdom -1
Weaving 1 Intelligence -1

Priest
# of Slots Relevant Check
Proficiency Required Ability Modifier
Ancient History 1 Intelligence -1
Astrology 2 Intelligence 0
Engineering 2 Intelligence -3
Healing 2 Wisdom -2
Herbalism 2 Intelligence -2
Languages, Ancient 1 Intelligence 0
Local History 1 Charisma 0
Musical Instrument 1 Dexterity -1
Navigation 1 Intelligence -2
Reading/Writing 1 Intelligence +1
Religion 1 Wisdom 0
Spellcraft 1 Intelligence -2

Rogue
# of Slots Relevant Check
Proficiency Required Ability Modifier
Ancient History 1 Intelligence -1
Appraising 1 Intelligence 0
Blind-fighting 2 NA NA
Disguise 1 Charisma -1
Forgery 1 Dexterity -1
Gaming 1 Charisma 0
Gem Cutting 2 Dexterity -2
Juggling 1 Dexterity -1
Jumping 1 Strength 0
Local History 1 Charisma 0
Musical Instrument 1 Dexterity -1
Reading Lips 2 Intelligence -2
Set Snares 1 Dexterity -1
Tightrope Walking 1 Dexterity 0
Tumbling 1 Dexterity 0
Ventriloquism 1 Intelligence -2

Warrior
# of Slots Relevant Check
Proficiency Required Ability Modifier
Animal Lore 1 Intelligence 0
Armorer 2 Intelligence -2
Blind-fighting 2 NA NA
Bowyer/Fletcher 1 Dexterity -1
Charioteering 1 Dexterity +2
Endurance 2 Constitution 0
Gaming 1 Charisma 0
Hunting 1 Wisdom -1
Mountaineering 1 NA NA
Navigation 1 Intelligence -2
Running 1 Constitution -6
Set Snares 1 Intelligence -1
Survival 2 Intelligence 0
Tracking 2 Wisdom 0
Weaponsmithing 3 Intelligence -3

Wizard
# of Slots Relevant Check
Proficiency Required Ability Modifier
Ancient History 1 Intelligence -1
Astrology 2 Intelligence 0
Engineering 2 Intelligence -3
Gem Cutting 2 Dexterity -2
Herbalism 2 Intelligence -2
Languages, Ancient 1 Intelligence 0
Navigation 1 Intelligence -2
Reading/Writing 1 Intelligence +1
Religion 1 Wisdom 0
Spellcraft 1 Intelligence -2
[/SBLOCK]

It looks like most of these are covered by equivalent 3e skills or feats. I remember a lot of 2e rogues with tumbling proficiency and I know my 2e human fighter had blindfighting.

2e had a focus on storytelling while 3e has a focus on "back to the 1e dungeon" but these seemed to be play style presentations to me, not mechanics of the games.

Take the 2e wizard spell list from the PH and compare to the 3e PH wizard spell list

[SBLOCK]Wizard Spells

1st Level

Affect Normal Fires (GONE)
Alarm (RETAINED)
Armor (RETAINED)
Audible Glamer (RETAINED)
Burning Hands (RETAINED)
Cantrip (RETAINED)
Change Self (RETAINED)
Charm Person (RETAINED)
Chill Touch (RETAINED)
Color Spray (RETAINED)
Comprehend Languages (RETAINED)
Dancing Lights (RETAINED)
Detect Magic (RETAINED)
Detect Undead (RETAINED)
Enlarge (RETAINED)
Erase (RETAINED)
Feather Fall (RETAINED)
Find Familiar (RETAINED as class ability)
Friends (GONE)
Gaze Reflection (GONE)
Grease (RETAINED)
Hold Portal (RETAINED)
Hypnotism (RETAINED)
Identify (RETAINED)
Jump (RETAINED)
Light (RETAINED)
Magic Missile (RETAINED)
Mending (RETAINED)
Message (RETAINED)
Mount (RETAINED)
Nystul's Magical Aura (RETAINED)
Phantasmal Force (RETAINED)
Protection From Evil (RETAINED)
Read Magic (RETAINED)
Shield (RETAINED)
Shocking Grasp (RETAINED)
Sleep (RETAINED)
Spider Climb (RETAINED)
Spook (RETAINED)
Taunt (GONE)
Tenser's Floating Disc (RETAINED)
Unseen Servant (RETAINED)
Ventriloquism (RETAINED)
Wall of Fog (RETAINED)
Wizard Mark (RETAINED)[/SBLOCK]

Affect normal fires and friends are non-combat spells that are gone, but taunt is a combat spell thats gone as well.

3e for 1st level wizards added in Endure Elements (which traces back to 1e), Detect Secret Doors, True Strike, Animate Rope, and Expeditious Retreat as completely new spells as far as I could tell (others were just rearranged in spell levels).

I see alignment affecting a little more in 3e than in 2e, in 2e it affected some classes and some items and some spells. In 3e it seems to affect more with more spells and items interacting mechanically with alignment as well as monster alignment issues having mechanical effects for DR and clerical summoning.

Non combat stuff on character sheets seems to have stayed the same in each edition, name, description, deity worshipped, notes, etc.

I'm not seeing the difference in