D&D 3E/3.5 3.0 Haste in 3.5

[Nifft]

What is so broken about 3.0e haste?

It's better than time stop ... and it stacks with time stop.

If what you want to do is cast spells, it's better than any other spell in the rules. It's what every sane spellcaster would cast first in every battle.

It's a no-brainer. It's broken.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Slaved]

Well, certainly a line could be added in to make it not work in a time stop as well?

If you want a lot of spells off in a longer battle I can see what you mean. But my question earlier about the +4 intelligence instead of this spell still stands in my opinion. It is not quite as effective but at the same time it also uses half of the spell slots.

Short term buff type spells are usually pretty tough. Using up the first round of combat is a significant sacrifice.

Perhaps if it skipped a round every other round? First round cast, second round extra standard action, third round nothing, fourth round extra standard action, ...

 

[Destil]

Well, certainly a line could be added in to make it not work in a time stop as well?

IMC this is the way things have allways works, and is supported by the rules as written in the stacking section (like how alter self and pollymorph won't stack for 2 disguise bonuses. It's spelled out right there, but I know that's an interpertation).

Short term buff type spells are usually pretty tough. Using up the first round of combat is a significant sacrifice.

And not one needed for 3.0 haste going by the RAW and FAQ of the time (why I so strongly encourage making it a full-round spell). You get the action to cast it back as soon as you've finshed casting, the only time it's a sacrifice is if you wanted a full attack during round one.

Also 3.0 haste is equally broken when cast on melee types, as it allows a partial charge followed by a full attack, which is huge.

 

[Slaved]

You get the action to cast it back as soon as you've finshed casting

I guess you could read it that way. A special note saying that this is impossible would be good then.

Also 3.0 haste is equally broken when cast on melee types, as it allows a partial charge followed by a full attack, which is huge.

You cannot actually do this in 3.5 right? I know that there are various ways to get pounce in 3.5 though.

 

[Nifft]

Short term buff type spells are usually pretty tough. Using up the first round of combat is a significant sacrifice.

Right, but it doesn't. It gives you a standard action immediately and thus it's free (in terms of actions, it does cost you a spell-slot or wand charge, but that's irrelevant at high levels -- actions are the currency that counts).

If you change the spell, you may be able to make it balanced, but that's a different issue -- you're not asking "level for 3.0e haste", you're asking "how do I balance extra actions in 3.5e".

The latter question is interesting, the former is useless.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Slaved]

Hopefully there is nothing wrong with making house rule suggestions in the house rule forum?

 

[Nifft]

Hopefully there is nothing wrong with making house rule suggestions in the house rule forum?

Nothing whatsoever! But it's a different question.

IMHO, an extra standard action for one round is balanced by:
- Losing your Move action (high-level spell); or
- Losing your Swift action (mid-level spell).

Thus, an 8th level spell that costs you a Move action to cast and allowed you an extra Standard action (duration of one round only) would be fairly balanced. You'd get your extra spell off, but you wouldn't get to do it for 15 rounds.

And a 6th level spell that cost you a Swift action to cast and allowed you an extra Standard action might similarly be balanced (again, duration 1 round only). You'd get two spells off but you couldn't get three spells off in one round.

Cheers, -- N

 

[dagger]

When wizards who can cast 9th level spells almost always lead with a 3rd level spell, then you have to take a serious look at that 3rd level spell.

 

[Elephant]

Well, certainly a line could be added in to make it not work in a time stop as well?

If you want a lot of spells off in a longer battle I can see what you mean. But my question earlier about the +4 intelligence instead of this spell still stands in my opinion. It is not quite as effective but at the same time it also uses half of the spell slots.

Short term buff type spells are usually pretty tough. Using up the first round of combat is a significant sacrifice.

Perhaps if it skipped a round every other round? First round cast, second round extra standard action, third round nothing, fourth round extra standard action, ...

Well, let's see how it compares. I'll assume that you have enough spell slots to cast plenty of Fireballs. At level 5, you'd only have two 3rd level spells, assuming a good Int, so you'd have to switch to 2nd or 1st level spells - but Fox's Cunning doesn't help with most 1st/2nd level attack spells (e.g. Magic Missile or Scorching Ray).

At higher levels, you'll have plenty of Fireballs - and even better spells besides!

Option 1: Use Fox's cunning

Round 1 - Fox's Cunning
Round 2 - Fireball (+2 DC due to Fox's Cunning for the rest of the battle)
Round 3 - Fireball
Round 4 - Fireball
Round 5 - Fireball

Option 2: Use Haste.

Round 1 - Haste
Round 2 - Fox's Cunning, then Fireball (+2 DC due to FC)
Round 3 - Fireball, Fireball
Round 4 - Fireball, Fireball
Round 5 - Fireball, Fireball

Option 1 gets you four Fireballs, each at +2 DC.
Option 2 gets you seven Fireballs at +2 DC (or eight Fireballs at normal DC).

Of course, if most fights wind up in round 2 or 3, Haste doesn't help as much.

 

[Slaved]

Well, your comparison basically said the same thing that I said earlier. It is not quite as effective but it uses less spell slots.

Your second example was certainly more effective but it also burned through 8 3rd level or higher slots and a 2nd level slot while the first example went through 4 3rd level slots and a 2nd level slot.

And of course the +4 int can be replaced by whatever stat is beneficial to the particular caster. +4 dex if you want to use rays for instance.

I have seen a psionic power that is like this in play and it was really bad to the point of not being worth manifesting. There has to be a happy middle ground somewhere.