3.0 monsters too weak?

Posted by Grog in PirateCat's story hour:

IME, most 3E monsters are very strong on offense and average to weak on defense. Look at a very basic example - the orc. It has 4 hit points and does 1d12+3 damage. It can do up to 15 points of damage without a crit - almost four times its HP. Its average damage is 9-10 points, which is still more than twice its HP. An ogre has 26 HP and does 14 damage on average. An ogre could drop another ogre in two hits with just average rolls. There wasn't this kind of damage to hit points ratio in 1E and 2E - or if there was, it was very rare.

This trend continues throughout the Monster Manual. Monsters deal out a lot of damage and while some of them may have a lot of hit points, very few have any significant defensive capabilities. You regularly see ACs in the low 20s and below on monsters CR 10 and up. Many monsters also have rather weak Reflex and Will saves.

Given the vast amounts of offense and low amounts of defense that most monsters bring to a fight, combats just can't last very long - and they don't, again IME.
IME this is especially true at the higher levels.

Anyone agree? Disagree? Do we need a poll?
 
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I agree, mostly, but I think it's easy enough to design custom monsters with more defense. But instead of just more hp/higher AC, you need to give 'em high levels of regeneration or fast healing or similar stuff; incorporeal monsters tend to last a little longer, too, since every other 'hit' turns out to miss on average.

Also, fights with more monsters last longer and give that ol' great cleave feat a chance to shine.
 

Absolutely. Especially in view of the number of 4th level fighters that have +10 to hit and do an average of 15 points of damage with a Greatsword, without any magical gear or particularly unusual stats...

I've been toying with giving higher-CR creatures low but non-reducible CR (in the 2-10 range) to make them stand up better to punishment without giving them higher HD and the increases in BAB, saves and skills that go with it.
 

I agree wholeheartedly. I occasionly run some numbers; I'll just throw together a 15th level fighter in 30 seconds; I'll run his average damage per round against a Balor in melee combat; he'll destroy it on average before he finishes his full attack.

Who designs these things?

At least they seem to be addressing it. The new pit fiend (CR 20) has 225 hit points and an AC of 40. He'll last for at least a round of melee, probably more like 3 or 4.
 

Amen!

But it's the CR system. A little off IMHO, but that gem has been discussed lots of time on these boards. Once you recognize that, with some experience you can adjust for it.

guessmith
game on
 

3e Design Decision

Big Offense, Low Defense = Fast, Bloody Combat

Fast combats = lots of bodies and lots of fun.

Examples:
Archers
Sorcerors with Fireball
Warriors with Great Cleave
Most MM Monsters


Player characters can use their magic items and tactics to customize and go against the grain.

i.e. PCs can create Higher Defense, Lower Offense characters

For example, my character Endur is a Dwarven Defender with no offensive feats. All of his feats are defensive: Close Quarters Fighting, Dodge, Endurance, Lightning Reflexes, Toughness.

Those feats combined with high AC armor and buff spells means that most monsters except for "Boss Monsters" need to roll high, a 19 or 20 to hit him.

And when a "Boss Monster" hits him, he has enough hit points to survive a hit.

Tom
 

I was going through Manual of the Planes the other day, and I looked at the inevitables. I noticed that, although their CRs ranged from 9 to 15, their ACs ranged from 26 to 28.

IME a 9th-level fighter has a hard time hitting AC 26. They probably won't hit if they make a full-round attack - although making a FRA is not always the best move.

On the other hand, a 15th-level fighter will probably have an attack bonus of +27 or +28, without extra buffs like prayer, making the inevitable's AC a formality. (Again, making a FRA against these creatures is a bad idea.)

Even the colossal scorpion, with it's obviously inaccurate CR, suffers this problem. It has amazing hit points, causing headaches for pretty much any class. It's saving throws make it immune to most save-or-die spells - even slow (a Will save spell) has a hard time affecting it. It's AC is lousy, but a fighter closing to melee and using Power Attack will be grappled, stung, will take ability damage, and then gets hoisted out of the reach of heal. An archer, even a part-time archer, especially one who uses fly will simply make mincemeat out of the scorpion.
 

Endur said:
3e Design Decision

Big Offense, Low Defense = Fast, Bloody Combat

Fast combats = lots of bodies and lots of fun.

I came to this conclusion a while ago myself (although the "fun" part is subjective). I really think WotC wanted to make combats go faster in 3E. That's the only reason I can think of that so many monsters have such tremendous damage-dealing ability relative to their hit points and ACs. Maybe they thought it would help attract new players to the game? Also, increasing combat speed means a group can have more combats per session, which increases the speed of leveling up.

Some of the ACs in the Monster Manual are ridiculously low. For example, the Frost Worm is a CR 12 monster with an 18 AC. Most 12th level fighters literally could not miss that AC without rolling a natural 1, except possibly on their worst attack. (Granted, you don't want to kill a Frost Worm in meele, but still). And many monsters' attack bonuses are so high that they almost can't miss the PCs.

So I'm glad to see ACs are going up for monsters - hopefully they'll go up for players too. Although you have to be careful about raising ACs too high - if the fighter is always missing with his last attack or two, it's going to get pretty frustrating, I think.
 
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