3.0 monsters too weak?

[Grog]

It would also probably mean that nobody else is hitting at all.

Right. That's the eternal problem with game balance - how do you make something a challenge for the character that's best in that particular area without making all the other characters totally useless? I mean, if the fighter was having trouble hitting, wizards and sorcerers would still be okay, but rogues and clerics wouldn't be much use in combat.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I've written up a list of "average" saving throw, attack bonus, save DC and AC values for player characters at levels 1, 5, 10, 15 and 20.

For most creatures, I didn't use the stats for a wizard (eg the wizard's attack bonus did not contribute to the average, since he isn't going to attack).

Lots of creatures have really low AC - even the low hit point "3.25" outsiders in the Fiend Folio.

 

[Stalker0]

Although you have to be careful about raising ACs too high - if the fighter is always missing with his last attack or two, it's going to get pretty frustrating, I think.

Fighter my friend, welcome to the wizard's world of saving throws and spell resistance

 

[Storm Raven]

IME a 9th-level fighter has a hard time hitting AC 26. They probably won't hit if they make a full-round attack - although making a FRA is not always the best move.

What?

Take a 9th level fighter. His BAB is +9 to begin with. Let's assume that he picked a decent Strength score to start with, and a combination of level boosts and stat enhancers gives him say an 18 Strength by 9th level for another +4. Give him weapon focus in his chosen weapon, and say a +2 weapon.

Without any other help that that listed, he attacks at +16/+11, hitting 55% of the time with his first attack and 25% of the time with his second attack.

Now, given that many 9th level fighters will have a Strength higher than 18, and I didn't even consider miscellaneous bonuses like bless or a inspire courage it seems that most 9th level fighters should have little difficulty in hitting AC 26 on a regular basis.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I should say "hard time hitting without spending resources then."

PS for these examples I always use 25 point buy characters, so the fighter probably won't have 18 Strength.

 

[mmu1]

Right. That's the eternal problem with game balance - how do you make something a challenge for the character that's best in that particular area without making all the other characters totally useless? I mean, if the fighter was having trouble hitting, wizards and sorcerers would still be okay, but rogues and clerics wouldn't be much use in combat.

DR - Low, but of the kind that can't be bypassed by anything. You don't have to worry about re-balancing the "to hit" modifiers, you just make the monsters last a little bit longer.

Never saw much point in DR that's meant to be bypassed...

 

[Grog]

DR - Low, but of the kind that can't be bypassed by anything. You don't have to worry about re-balancing the "to hit" modifiers, you just make the monsters last a little bit longer.

That leads to exactly the same problem you get with raising ACs, though. The fighter is going to be doing the most damage of anyone, in all likelihood (unless the rogue gets a sneak attack in), so any DR that impacts him could very well shut the other characters down cold (again, not counting the spellcasters).

 

[Voadam]

Too increase the toughness of a creature without making it much more deadly, advance it by HD, this gives it more hit points and a little more BAB, but not more damage, potent powers, or massive resistances. They will stand up to punishment a little longer but not be much more of an instant threat. The CR stays roughly the same as well.

Beware going up to the next size category though, increased strength and reach can be significant threat increases.

To go to absurd extremes, add on levels of commoner, expert, noble or warrior.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

My only gripe with advancing creatures is that it's a lot of work

For AC, I've found averaging the attack bonus of fighters, clerics, and rogues help. Lower AC if it flies, since clerics tend to have terrible ranged attack bonuses, and melee fighters are rarely as good at archery as they are at chopping things (especially with GMW on a bow being nerfed).

 

[Storm Raven]

I should say "hard time hitting without spending resources then."

I didn't spend any resources. Everythign the fighter used was a permanent item or addition.

PS for these examples I always use 25 point buy characters, so the fighter probably won't have 18 Strength.

Actually, he probably will. Most fighters, even under 25 point buy are likely to start with a Strength of 14 or 15. By 9th level, they get two stat bumps, if he puts those into Strength and acquires some gauntlets of ogre power, he's at 18 or 19 Strength.

A 1st level fighter is unlikely to have an 18 Strength, but a 9th level fighter who doesn't is either playing a wierd type (like a finesse guy) or just not paying attention.