3.0 spells broken? BAH!

ruleslawyer said:
Actually, I have seen it in action; I implemented precisely this change to haste six months before the revisions hit the shelves. I'm not saying that haste is a wimpy spell, but I AM saying that yes, an extra attack at full BAB by two party members is not as good as an extra spell. In fact, you point to one of the reasons
We are arguing at cross -purpose. I'm not comparing haste 3.0 to haste 3.5. I'm saying haste 3.5 is still broken (in 3.5). There is still no better 3rd level spell for a mage in a large party. As I said, the sorcerer in our group still took "haste" as his sole 3rd level spell at 6th level because the new haste is broken. It's just broken differently than the 3.0 haste.
 

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silentspace said:
Besides, what happens if the players use up all their spells to smack down one baddie, and there's another one right behind the corner? What happens if the DM starts making checks to see if all those wands and scrolls survive? What happens if the players become the hunted, instead of the hunters?
I believe that this is the biggest factor to determining how powerful some of the spells and smacks are out there -- whether they last or if they are a one-trick pony. It's nice to be able to attain several spells per round, but you burn through them just as fast. And if the GM does start pushing more encounters your way, then you are at a disadvantage resource wise.

I like the idea of the players becoming the hunted, instead of the hunters!!

silentspace said:
All that being said, I have no problem with 3.5. It's sort of like Microsoft, you just have to accept it. :)
:)
 

jmucchiello said:
We are arguing at cross -purpose. I'm not comparing haste 3.0 to haste 3.5. I'm saying haste 3.5 is still broken (in 3.5). There is still no better 3rd level spell for a mage in a large party. As I said, the sorcerer in our group still took "haste" as his sole 3rd level spell at 6th level because the new haste is broken. It's just broken differently than the 3.0 haste.

Uh, no. Being particularly effective under a limited condition (large party) does not constitude being broken. Unless a party is exceptionally large or is composed of mostly fighters, its usually all a waste to use haste as oppossed to any number of massive damage spells. So unless you can cite something other than a ridiculously extreme example party, i'd be more careful about using the term 'broken', especially when by your own admission your example is well beyond the assumed party level as stated by numerous designers and the rulebooks...
 

jasamcarl said:
Uh, no. Being particularly effective under a limited condition (large party) does not constitude being broken. Unless a party is exceptionally large or is composed of mostly fighters, its usually all a waste to use haste as oppossed to any number of massive damage spells. So unless you can cite something other than a ridiculously extreme example party, i'd be more careful about using the term 'broken', especially when by your own admission your example is well beyond the assumed party level as stated by numerous designers and the rulebooks...
I play every week in a party with 5 fighters/rogues and two spellcasters. I don't think that's limited, ridiculous or extreme. Balancing against only one form of party is not balancing. Consider a party of 4 with two cohorts and an animal companion, is that still a freakish example?

And, um, why should I "be careful" using the term "broken"? I'll call anything I like broken whether it has limited application or not. Suppose I create a 20-level core class that is totally unsurvivable in normal play (has no abilities, d2 hit dice, no good saves) which at 20th level gains immunity to all effects and kills instantly by thought no save. Doesn't this fit your definition of a limited condition? Isn't it still broken?
 

Playing in a RPGA interactive in 3.0, I was hit by a an 11th level hasted cleric using harm followed by a cause critical. :( I went to -8 in one round. It is not broken if no one ever used it, but I saw it used constantly from PC's & NPC's in conventions. The best changes in 3.5 after class restructure for bards & rangers was the nerfing of haste and harm. I also believe that the ability buffs were overpowered also but they were not game breaking the way haste and harm were.

Regarding 3.5 haste, I have never seen someone carrying it other than a bard. Of course, the groups I tend to play with tend to have a lot of divine / arcane casters so your mileage may vary.

-Psiblade
 
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Woo, getting a little tight in here :D wonderful... anyway my personal definition of broken in regards to a spell is something so rediculously powerful that it truly does hinder a DM and ruin the fun of the game. I guess never having my fun ruined by any spells or abilities created in 3.0 and none of the spells or hindered my attempts at making an interesting game made me never consider these spells overpowered. I'm also still a little fond of some 2nd edition things such as gauntlets of Ogre Power actually giving you strength akin to an Ogre instead of a meer +2 which doesn't bring many people to the 20, 21 (can't remember which) str of an actual ogre. Still, that's an easily mendable 3.0 mistake... However haste giving extra attacks and spell casting, doesn't bother me much, especially if my players were to use it in some earlier combat. That way when the next wonderful encounter comes along said player has less spells. Or what is truly wonderful is when PC's come to rely on some sort of magic item or spell to get them through a situation. Then toss them into a situation where that ability is nigh useless?

One example scenario:
My dwarven cleric has his spells cast, his Greater Magic Weapon on his Waraxe, Bull's Str, and his Shield of Faith, all great for helping him in a melee battle. Then he and the party exit the tunnel they've been wandering and come out onto a ledge in a chasm. On the opposite side of the chasm are a group of archers, across the chasm is a rickity rope bridge that requires numerous balance checks or climb checks that are heavily penalized should the PC's get fired upon while crossing. Their one option is to enter a missile battle which leaves the Dwarf with a mere plus one bonus to using his crossbow granted to him from his dex. Meanwhile the Fighter, whom the Dwarf normally tops in melee combat when his spells are cast, has a rather nice attack bonus and a damage bonus because he has a composite longow and has an easier time picking off the enemy.

Another example using Haste:
Let's say the same senario is in effect, perhaps change the enemy archers to wizards who have cast protection from normal missiles on themselves. Or amybe even give the archers rings of protection from normal missiles. My parties wizard casts Haste, let's say on himself and then when his action comes along he casts haste on the parties fighter and fireball on the wizards/archers. So he does some damage to the wizards and/or archers and gives the fighter an extra shot with his mighty longbow. Fighters arrow goes through the wizard like smoke considering the arrow isn't enchanted, wizard can get off couple spells a round for the next few rounds, these spells while doing damage aren't too devastating, perhaps the wizards or archers have brooches of shield so the wizard wastes a couple magic missile spells. He's alread quickly depleting his third level spells which are quite combat heavy and the couple magic missile spells he's memorised. He's only wearing himself out. Is the DM going to be a nice guy and let them rest after that without interruption? After such a wonderful opportunity as a wizard wasting his spells? Nah. An extra partial action isn't that big of a deal even if it comes with an extra spell if you ask me. add quicken spell and you add another which is a nice use of feats though nothing that can't really be handled.

As for climactic battles being rendered short thusly? Played a rather enjoyable game where my adventuring party wen't up against a wizard who was distributing cursed items and blaming it on other wizards. He had done a few other horrible things in the process of his quest to eliminate the competition and we went after him after investigating and roleplaying. He managed to get off a magic missile, our wizard was smarter and had memorized sleep. Guy was out so my rogue moved forward and performed a coup de grace, end of combat, while it was quick we were all rather satisfied for the enemy had been eliminated. I can't say I've ever dealt with Harm as being a spell issue as none of my players enjoy playing clerics and the DM I played a cleric under found that while my defences helped me in melee many CR7-11 monsters had more than a high enough attack bonus to hit my AC of 26 brought upon by the spells.

Anyway, I'm shutting up now before I do something stupid like repeat myself.
 
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I found with 3.0 Haste that it let Sorcerers of level 8+ pump out more damage than Fighter types, round after round, so that they routinely overshadowed fighter types several levels higher in combat. Not good IMO. Meanwhile the 3.0 buffs let Clerics overshadow everyone else to a ridiculous degree - of course the Clerics would spare some buffs for the fighters also, if they asked nicely. :)

3.5 solved these problems well. I let Sorcerers Quicken spells so they can still cast 2/round if desperate, but now the price is appropriate - a 5th level slot for a Quickened magic missile is fine by me.
 

Fighters may be grunts but it has been my experience that mages, especially at higher levels, are always bigger damage dealers, even with or without haste. So the fact that they outdo fighters isn't that big of a deal. I have never seen a cleric who could out do a good wizard with sheer destructive force of spells. He could beef himself up and outdo the fighter for a time but there's many things that can happen to screw this over the main one being a dispell magic which is standard issue for most spell casters.
 

Renfield said:
Now, by this time three rounds have passed and the other players are thrashing the enemy, so my character rushes in to join the fight. Byt the time combat is over he has to sacrifice quite a few 2nd and 3rd level spell slots for healing (where many of the so-called problem spells dwell) His divine favor is gone. He decides to play it safe and shortly before they enter the next room in this dungeon he cast's Greater Magic Weapon. ...

Of course you can limit yourself by casting spells that run for several hours like spells that only run for a couple rounds, but that doesn't make the spells less powerful, really! ;)

I currently have a cleric (well rogue/cleric actually) in a still 3.0 campaign (we decided not to change mid-campaign, altho we have already nerfed some of the more broken stuff like Polymorph Other, Haste and Harm - quite some time ago, actually).

Although I didn't even choose Extend Spell/Persistant Spell (but she has Quicken Spell) she is still extremely powerful in combat, and that all day long, even when being hit by dispels every other fight. She still retains enough healing power to get the party back up after one or two nasty encounters and has a decent selection of utility spells. It's not really much of a problem, as that campaign is fairly high-powered now (altho we started fairly low), when it comes to fighting, we are hit by Destructions and similar spells quite a bit. ;)

At 13th level she usually has an attack bonus of about +30 for her highest attacks (that is without spending a single action to buff during combat) with 3 attacks per round unbuffed and 4-5 depending on buffs (of course she needs to use up actions then to cast Divine Power, for example). I remember her doing 170 points of damage to a fighter in one round once before he could even act (altho that was with preparations and some of the short duration spells running as well). And the most alarming about that is, there's still a lot room for improvement...

It's very good that they went so far to making buff spells less overpowering in 3.5!

Bye
Thanee
 

Renfield said:
Fighters may be grunts but it has been my experience that mages, especially at higher levels, are always bigger damage dealers, even with or without haste. So the fact that they outdo fighters isn't that big of a deal. I have never seen a cleric who could out do a good wizard with sheer destructive force of spells. He could beef himself up and outdo the fighter for a time but there's many things that can happen to screw this over the main one being a dispell magic which is standard issue for most spell casters.

Few buff spells have visible effects, so there's no reason to expect the enemy caster will know to cast dispel magic (& NPC casters with dispel magic are not hugely common IMC anyway). It's usually the wizards with mirror image, shield, flame shield etc who incite the dispels, not buffed clerics & fighters. I do think it's a big deal that Sorcerers (not Wizards) can overshadow Fighters in Fighter's sole area of expertise. In 3.5 Sorcerers are still better at wiping out large numbers of weak foes, but Fighters have the edge vs single powerful foes.
 

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