D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Arcane Archer -- Nifft's Version!
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Thanee said:Looks quite nice. I think the Imbue Arrows ability is too much (just to make sure, that's in addition to all the effects of the bow and the spells on it, right?) and the Arcane Shot one too weak OTOH, but otherwise... good job. Surely better than the DMG original.
Hi Thanee!
Specifics, please? What's too strong?
The Arcane Shot is at that strength because untyped damage is VERY nice for an Archer or Wizard, and full attacks are easier for an Archer to pull off safely... so the Arcane Strike mechanic wasn't appropriate.
Thanks, -- N
Thanee
First Post
Too much stacking goodness IMHO.
Eventually you'll have...
...a +1 weapon with 4 levels worth of enhancements
...a class ability adding another 4 levels worth of enhancements
...some spells, which add some more on top of this (as a swift action)
...Greater Magic Weapon for the enhancement bonus (a +3 is reasonable)
Doesn't that rack up a little too high? I'd guess so.
I agree, that Arcane Strike would be a little much, but Arcane Shot seems seriously crippled in comparison. No attack bonus and only one attack per round? I would probably 'drop' only one of those, not both. In most cases, I cannot believe, that it will be worth dropping a spell just to potentially deal (level)d4 extra damage; especially if you have less spells than a full caster, since they become even more valuable then. Has this ability really been used to good effect?
And there are no prerequisites to speak of. Nothing you wouldn't take, anyways. So the only cost of the class is the opportunity cost that you cannot get levels in another class at the same time (the strongest disadvantage is probably the d6 HD the rest looks pretty nifty all around).
Bye
Thanee
Eventually you'll have...
...a +1 weapon with 4 levels worth of enhancements
...a class ability adding another 4 levels worth of enhancements
...some spells, which add some more on top of this (as a swift action)
...Greater Magic Weapon for the enhancement bonus (a +3 is reasonable)
Doesn't that rack up a little too high? I'd guess so.
I agree, that Arcane Strike would be a little much, but Arcane Shot seems seriously crippled in comparison. No attack bonus and only one attack per round? I would probably 'drop' only one of those, not both. In most cases, I cannot believe, that it will be worth dropping a spell just to potentially deal (level)d4 extra damage; especially if you have less spells than a full caster, since they become even more valuable then. Has this ability really been used to good effect?
And there are no prerequisites to speak of. Nothing you wouldn't take, anyways. So the only cost of the class is the opportunity cost that you cannot get levels in another class at the same time (the strongest disadvantage is probably the d6 HD the rest looks pretty nifty all around).
Bye
Thanee
Nifft
Penguin Herder
The cost of the class:
1/2 spellcaster progression -- NOT a primary spellcaster
d6 HD -- NOT a front-line fighter
4 skill points/level -- NOT a skill monkey
Given that you could have most of those arrow benefits anyway, I really don't see the problem. It's been common practice since 3.5e came out to have a +1 Bow with +9 equivalent abilities, and then a bunch of specific stuff on +1 arrows (e.g. bane (chaotic outsider) bane (evil outsider) shocking burst keen cold iron arrows), which you then boost using Greater Magic Weapon.
This PrC adds one more group of specials, with the caveat that you can't change them around for different fights.
Given how the old Arcane Archer PrC was a free pass on 3.0e DR, I think the updated class fits the intent of the old version perfectly.
...
But the short answer is: try it. Zad's played one up to significantly high levels, and I've thrown NPCs using this class at my PCs, and now the party has one NPC with this class in their cohort-pool. So far, so good, all around.
Do you have numbers, or only vague worries?
-- N
1/2 spellcaster progression -- NOT a primary spellcaster
d6 HD -- NOT a front-line fighter
4 skill points/level -- NOT a skill monkey
Given that you could have most of those arrow benefits anyway, I really don't see the problem. It's been common practice since 3.5e came out to have a +1 Bow with +9 equivalent abilities, and then a bunch of specific stuff on +1 arrows (e.g. bane (chaotic outsider) bane (evil outsider) shocking burst keen cold iron arrows), which you then boost using Greater Magic Weapon.
This PrC adds one more group of specials, with the caveat that you can't change them around for different fights.
Given how the old Arcane Archer PrC was a free pass on 3.0e DR, I think the updated class fits the intent of the old version perfectly.
...
But the short answer is: try it.
Zad's played one up to significantly high levels, and I've thrown NPCs using this class at my PCs, and now the party has one NPC with this class in their cohort-pool. So far, so good, all around.Do you have numbers, or only vague worries?
-- N
Thanee
First Post
Nifft said:
Compared to a typical fighter, that looks pretty good.
1/2 spellcaster progression -- more spells than you could ever dream of
d6 HD -- ok, not a front-liner, but you are an archer, right?
4 skill points/level -- certainly better than what you had before
The 'problem' (it's just a 'vague feeling' as you put it) is the number of benefits, not that you can actually have them. I only listed a +5 weapon, since +10 weapons are pretty unreasonable in most campaigns, while +5 are certainly possible.
Of course. But is it a good idea to make this even better by adding on top of it?
But the short answer is: try it.
As usual, there are many factors to it. I mainly think that class ability is adding to something, which I consider to be pretty strong already.
Bye
Thanee
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Thanee said:Compared to a typical fighter, that looks pretty good.
1/2 spellcaster progression -- more spells than you could ever dream of
d6 HD -- ok, not a front-liner, but you are an archer, right?
4 skill points/level -- certainly better than what you had before
Except some of these abilities are opposed to each other. You're a Fighter -- but you can't wear armor, or you lose spellcasting. You already have at least one level of Wizard or Sorcerer, so your BAB has already taken a hit (as have your HP).
The skill points are there to make the transition from Rogue, Ranger or Scout hurt less... they might be nice for a Fighter, but I can't see anyone taking this PrC just for the skill points.
Thanee said:
All I can say is: please give it a try! I value your opinion, but in this case I think experience will change it.
If nothing else, stat out an Arcane Archer at a few levels, and see how much damage an Elf Cleric Archer (core only, no FR cheese) could put out. Divine favor in particular will be pivotal, I think, but the higher caster level -> higher GMW bonus will be nice, too.
Cheers, -- N
Thanee
First Post
Nifft said:
No, surely not!
All I can say is: please give it a try! I value your opinion, but in this case I think experience will change it.
Well, I don't think the class as a whole is really that much overpowered as it might sound. I just think that this particular ability is a bit much (and the Arcane Shot a little on the weak side).
Bye
Thanee
P.S. And most of the 'cheesy stuff' for the cleric archers is in the PHB, not in the FR supplements. They mostly brought in Persistent Spell (which is easily replaced by Quicken Spell) and the Elf domain, which is completely reasonable.
Nareau
Explorer
Indeed, great class! We're going to be using this in our game (Ftr2/Battle Sorceror 7/Niffty Archer 6). A couple of thoughts...
1) A very large percentage of the arcane touch spells in the PHB are necromancy spells. That might be fun to work into the flavor of the class. Can people recommend some other sources for touch spells that aren't necromantic?
2) On a related note, a lot of non-arcane touch spells are druidic. I think it would be interesting to see this class opened up to other spellcasters (although that might throw all balance out the window). I wonder what it would look like if the prereq's were "Ability to cast 1st level spells", and the spellcaster progression was "+1 level of existing spellcasting class".
Spider
1) A very large percentage of the arcane touch spells in the PHB are necromancy spells. That might be fun to work into the flavor of the class. Can people recommend some other sources for touch spells that aren't necromantic?
2) On a related note, a lot of non-arcane touch spells are druidic. I think it would be interesting to see this class opened up to other spellcasters (although that might throw all balance out the window). I wonder what it would look like if the prereq's were "Ability to cast 1st level spells", and the spellcaster progression was "+1 level of existing spellcasting class".
Spider
