ruleslawyer
Registered User
The Divine Emissary does, IIRC.Nifft said:
D&D 3E/3.5 3.5 Arcane Archer -- Nifft's Version!
Nifft
Penguin Herder
WizarDru said:
I've been updating the version at the top of the thread. The other versions in this thread (exept for the Epic ArcArch) are not mine.
For an up-to-date & easier-on-the-eyes version, you can always check my web site:
(EDIT: <--- See link in the menu that drops down from my name!)
-- N
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Nifft
Penguin Herder
After trying to build some Arcane Archer NPCs, I've decided that the first level is too weak. So, now the first level has the same effect as the Core Arcane Archer -- all arrows fired are effectively +1 for damage, overcoming DR and hitting incorporeal foes.
Anyone think this is too strong, or that the PrC needs to lose something to make up for it? I think this is a minor boost, but it's important.
-- N
Anyone think this is too strong, or that the PrC needs to lose something to make up for it? I think this is a minor boost, but it's important.
-- N
Gotta say I like this one...
Nifft,
just wanted to say good job, been gaming here in iraq for the past 11 months and wishing for a better archer class. this is much better than any other version I've seen of the arcane archer. And I dont think its too powerful with the +1 arrows at 1st level, makes more sense that way, and not at all overpowered. anyway, its great, and I'm going to have to steal it for my game.
Nifft,
just wanted to say good job, been gaming here in iraq for the past 11 months and wishing for a better archer class. this is much better than any other version I've seen of the arcane archer. And I dont think its too powerful with the +1 arrows at 1st level, makes more sense that way, and not at all overpowered. anyway, its great, and I'm going to have to steal it for my game.
Zad
First Post
I think it's fine. I think you're right - it does weigh in light at first level. I've mostly been evaluating it from the high end (since that's how I'd be using it) but I think this is fine, and when you figure you have a magic bow by that point, it really doesn't change much anyway.
Spatzimaus
First Post
I agree that they needed something extra at first level, although it was a pretty decent level already. With the two good saves, they get two +2 resist bonuses at first level; good, although not enough to justify the loss of caster level.
Anyway, I went back through to check the balance, and I came up with a few other things you might want to consider:
1> Your new "Imbue Arrows (Magic)" is still phrased awkwardly. You explicitly list the benefits, but not all of them; for example, you don't mention the +1 attack bonus (unless you use the house rule that enhancements on the bow give an attack bonus and those on the arrows give the damage bonus instead of the 3.5 rule?)
Just say "All arrows fired by the Arcane Archer gain a +1 enhancement bonus" and be done with it.
Question: can this be suppressed? If I'm fighting an enemy with DR 5/(NOT magic), can I turn it off?
Nitpick: I've never liked how the GMW spells bypassed the masterwork requirement, or any other characteristics of the material. For example, making Cold Iron arrows magical with this ability wouldn't be any different than normal arrows. You COULD say "all MASTERWORK arrows gain a +1 enhancement bonus; non-masterwork simply gain the ability to bypass X/magic Damage Reduction with no other bonuses"; slightly weaker, of course. Not that this really needs to be changed. If you DID require masterwork arrows, you'd need to add Craft (fletching) and Craft (bowyering) as class skills.
2> On Imbue Arrows (Effect), you want to be careful with the phrasing on the enhancement bonus part. Right now, the way you wrote it implies that it stacks with an enhancement bonus already on the arrow, which means if I fire an arrow already enchanted to +5, I can get into Epic range. You were using words like "cumulative" to imply that it stacks with itself, and it stacks with the Imbue (Magic) ability, but it can't stack with an existing Enhancement or with that of the bow.
Just say something like "All arrows fired by the Arcane Archer gain one of the following abilities: increase the benefits of Imbue (Magic) by +1 (to a maximum of +5), or (all those other +1-equivalent abilities)"
You need the explicit +5 maximum because if all they take for Imbue (Effect) and Enhance Effect is the enhancement bonus boost, they'd be at +6. While "epic" DR isn't +6 any more, it's still not good to have your arrows be better than anything someone could make.
3> Now that I think about it more, Arcane Shot I seems a little on the weak side. Not that it still isn't useful in its current form, of course. My suggestion is to add a flat +1 attack bonus as well (not +1/level, just +1). When using a low-level spell this'll almost be as good as Arcane Shot II. And, it'll actually allow you to trade cantrips for a simple +1 attack bonus (right now you can't trade them for anything).
Anyway, I went back through to check the balance, and I came up with a few other things you might want to consider:
1> Your new "Imbue Arrows (Magic)" is still phrased awkwardly. You explicitly list the benefits, but not all of them; for example, you don't mention the +1 attack bonus (unless you use the house rule that enhancements on the bow give an attack bonus and those on the arrows give the damage bonus instead of the 3.5 rule?)
Just say "All arrows fired by the Arcane Archer gain a +1 enhancement bonus" and be done with it.
Question: can this be suppressed? If I'm fighting an enemy with DR 5/(NOT magic), can I turn it off?
Nitpick: I've never liked how the GMW spells bypassed the masterwork requirement, or any other characteristics of the material. For example, making Cold Iron arrows magical with this ability wouldn't be any different than normal arrows. You COULD say "all MASTERWORK arrows gain a +1 enhancement bonus; non-masterwork simply gain the ability to bypass X/magic Damage Reduction with no other bonuses"; slightly weaker, of course. Not that this really needs to be changed. If you DID require masterwork arrows, you'd need to add Craft (fletching) and Craft (bowyering) as class skills.
2> On Imbue Arrows (Effect), you want to be careful with the phrasing on the enhancement bonus part. Right now, the way you wrote it implies that it stacks with an enhancement bonus already on the arrow, which means if I fire an arrow already enchanted to +5, I can get into Epic range. You were using words like "cumulative" to imply that it stacks with itself, and it stacks with the Imbue (Magic) ability, but it can't stack with an existing Enhancement or with that of the bow.
Just say something like "All arrows fired by the Arcane Archer gain one of the following abilities: increase the benefits of Imbue (Magic) by +1 (to a maximum of +5), or (all those other +1-equivalent abilities)"
You need the explicit +5 maximum because if all they take for Imbue (Effect) and Enhance Effect is the enhancement bonus boost, they'd be at +6. While "epic" DR isn't +6 any more, it's still not good to have your arrows be better than anything someone could make.
3> Now that I think about it more, Arcane Shot I seems a little on the weak side. Not that it still isn't useful in its current form, of course. My suggestion is to add a flat +1 attack bonus as well (not +1/level, just +1). When using a low-level spell this'll almost be as good as Arcane Shot II. And, it'll actually allow you to trade cantrips for a simple +1 attack bonus (right now you can't trade them for anything).
Zad
First Post
I noticed that there's a feat in ... um... complete warrior maybe? I can't quite recall but I read it the other night and said "Wow that's very similar to Arcane Shot" so you might want to check it for balance purposes. Since CW was something I was flipping through the other night, that's probably it.Spatzimaus said:
Nifft
Penguin Herder
Spatzimaus said:
Good points. I think that what I'm going do is make Imbue Arrow (Magic) grant a +1 Enhancement bonus, and never allow any power to grant another Enhancement bonus. The rest have to be "special effects". This eliminates the Epic issue, and forces flavor down the poor character's throat.
I think I do state that you can suppress any ability at will, though that was more for Brilliant Energy (an Epic enhancement) than for DR/Not Magic. If your DM is prone to throw silly things like that at you, be sure to check with him in advance.
You make a good point about Cantrips & Arcane Shot. I'll make AS1 grant a +1 to Damage when using a Cantrip -- this is equivalent to Psionic Talents like Force and Talons -- and +1 Attack, +1 Damage with AS2.
-- N
Spatzimaus
First Post
Good points. I think that what I'm going do is make Imbue Arrow (Magic) grant a +1 Enhancement bonus, and never allow any power to grant another Enhancement bonus. The rest have to be "special effects". This eliminates the Epic issue, and forces flavor down the poor character's throat.
Yes, that'll solve the problem, but it also adds one: conversion. The current 3.5E AA wants a bow with tons of specials since the arrow will have a big enhancement bonus, while your AA is the exact opposite. So, anyone switching to your AA will want to replace their +1 Chaotic Shocking Burst bow with a straight +5.
But, I like it, since right now taking a bunch of Flaming/Frost/etc on the same weapon is suboptimal; you have to waste a bunch of time activating each, and then there's the resist issue, so people would prefer to stack up the enhancement bonus.
In fact, you could add a few new enchantment options that aren't available as regular weapon enchantments. For example, add an "anyElement" enchantment that only does +1d4 elemental damage but as a Free Action the wielder can change which element. At the Enhance Effect level, make a +1d8 version and allow any of the elemental boosts to upgrade to it. That sort of thing.
That might be questionable for a normal weapon, but as an AA-only ability it'd be fine.
I think I do state that you can suppress any ability at will
You say it for the special abilities selected through the "Imbue Arrow (Effect)" ability. Not for the Imbue Arrow (Magic), which previously wasn't an issue since it never actually gave anything that could be a downside. That's why it's a minor quibble; there's a precedent (well, more like a postcedent since it comes later) and it's something that'll almost never come up anyway.
As for the feat in Complete Warrior, if it's anything like the Dragon magazine feat that was discussed earlier then it probably is melee-only, where a caster would suffer from the lack of armor or HP. If not, I'd say it's horribly unbalanced; allowing any Wizard or Sorcerer to drop a 9th-level slot for thirty to forty extra ranged damage plus an attack bonus higher than a fighter would get? Not a chance.
Yes, that'll solve the problem, but it also adds one: conversion. The current 3.5E AA wants a bow with tons of specials since the arrow will have a big enhancement bonus, while your AA is the exact opposite. So, anyone switching to your AA will want to replace their +1 Chaotic Shocking Burst bow with a straight +5.
But, I like it, since right now taking a bunch of Flaming/Frost/etc on the same weapon is suboptimal; you have to waste a bunch of time activating each, and then there's the resist issue, so people would prefer to stack up the enhancement bonus.
In fact, you could add a few new enchantment options that aren't available as regular weapon enchantments. For example, add an "anyElement" enchantment that only does +1d4 elemental damage but as a Free Action the wielder can change which element. At the Enhance Effect level, make a +1d8 version and allow any of the elemental boosts to upgrade to it. That sort of thing.
That might be questionable for a normal weapon, but as an AA-only ability it'd be fine.
I think I do state that you can suppress any ability at will
You say it for the special abilities selected through the "Imbue Arrow (Effect)" ability. Not for the Imbue Arrow (Magic), which previously wasn't an issue since it never actually gave anything that could be a downside. That's why it's a minor quibble; there's a precedent (well, more like a postcedent since it comes later) and it's something that'll almost never come up anyway.
As for the feat in Complete Warrior, if it's anything like the Dragon magazine feat that was discussed earlier then it probably is melee-only, where a caster would suffer from the lack of armor or HP. If not, I'd say it's horribly unbalanced; allowing any Wizard or Sorcerer to drop a 9th-level slot for thirty to forty extra ranged damage plus an attack bonus higher than a fighter would get? Not a chance.
